Arianna Huffington & Agapi Stassinopoulos

[00:00:00] It's amazing how creativity works. How do you write a book? How do you marry this guy? How do you have a child? How do these things that are life's work, that is life's chapters, come to you? They come to you because they're in you. I'm Courtney Martin, and this is The Wise Unknown.

[00:00:30] We live in a time of fame, fanaticism, and egos run amok. Am I right? Well, welcome to the exact opposite. On this podcast, I ask famous people, actors, writers, chefs, spiritual leaders, to introduce me to the wisest person they know that no one has ever heard of. And then, I kick the famous person off the line. It's pretty fun, and very countercultural.

[00:00:55] As you might imagine, these Wise Unknowns don't have a million followers on Instagram, but they reliably drop knowledge that rattles around in my brain for days and days to come. Now, today's episode is a special one. We get to talk to sisters. I didn't have a sister, so when I found out that I was going to be raising a pair of them, I was stumped. All the best and worst of iconic sisters flashed through my mind, and I thought, how do I make sure my girls are good to one another?

[00:01:23] Spoiler alert, I'm not in control. There's basically nothing I can do, but I do continue to get great inspiration from sister pairs I meet out in the world who truly love and support one another, despite inevitable differences.

[00:01:40] Without further ado, meet best-selling author and media mogul, Ariana Huffington, and her Wise Unknown, actor, spiritual guide, dear sister, Agape Stasinopoulos. Ariana, thank you so much for doing this. I can't tell you how much I appreciate it.

[00:02:01] So, you know, this podcast has been such a joy. The concept is the Wise Unknown, and basically, we ask, you know, famous people to tell us, who do you think is a person that more people should hear from? In your case, you're introducing us to someone today who actually has quite a bit of notoriety already, is an author, is someone that a lot of people look to, but even more people need to. So tell us, who are you introducing us to today? Who is your wise person?

[00:02:27] So I'm just thrilled to be introducing you to my little sister, Agape Stasinopoulos. And although, as you rightly said, she's written five books and a lot of people know her and love her, I want more people to know her because she has been such a rock of Gibraltar for me ever since she was born.

[00:02:54] A source of incredible joy. I was always too serious, a bit of a big bookworm. She complained to her mother that I didn't play enough. So she often kind of dragged me out from my reading or my studies or my work or whatever I thought could not wait and brought me into life and play and joy.

[00:03:23] And also, from the beginning, she was really my first spiritual teacher because she had an innate connection to spirit. Oh, that's so beautiful. So even as a little girl, she was doing this with you? Even as a little girl. You know, obviously, as a little girl, it was in a little girl way. Yeah. And then it became in a more sophisticated way. But the principle, the impulse was always there.

[00:03:52] Wow. That is so beautiful. Can I ask you, I have two daughters, so this is really hitting home for me. And they're very different. And I'm often thinking, you know, how can I support them in such a way? I know partly it's totally out of my control, but how can I do what I can do to help them see the beauty of their differences and, you know, live a life like the two of you have?

[00:04:13] Ariana, before I let you go, can you tell us what do you think allows for the abundance between the two of you as opposed to competition or separation in your differences? I think it's unconditional loving. And, you know, Agape's name actually means love. And she manifests it. And I think there is that unconditional loving. So whatever was happening in our lives, we just totally shared it with each other.

[00:04:42] You know, I have two daughters and she's like another mother to my daughters. And she's always been a huge part of everything happening in our lives, the good and the bad. The fact that she helped us deal with challenges in a way that helped us learn from them instead of defeated by them. And that happened in her own life. You know, she writes in one of her books.

[00:05:12] When her career in theater didn't go the way she wanted, it was kind of a great lesson to see what other roads were open for her. That's something which she brought to me and my daughters and anyone who is in front of her. She's a kind of natural born teacher. Oh, I love that. You guys are quite a house of women. I'm just like between the daughters and the two of you.

[00:05:42] And I know your mother has been a huge inspiration for both of you. And I think you've said your first spiritual teacher. So I'm just imagining this beautiful table with all these women around it having these conversations. Around the kitchen with a lot of great food. Yeah, I love it. I love it. OK, Ariana, we're going to kick you off and talk to your little sister. Thank you so much for doing this. Thank you so much, Courtney. Agape. Enjoy. Here I am. Hi, my darling Courtney.

[00:06:12] Hello. Hello. So how did that feel to hear Ariana say that? I'm sure you've heard it before, but... Well, I love my sister so much. And I'm so blessed that we have each other. We've overcome so much and we've seen each other through so many transformations and the girls. And now, you know, she has this amazing grandson who is two. The blessings continue. So you all let a boy into the family? We let a boy into the family, yes.

[00:06:43] So sweet. I love it. I love it. So do you remember that little girl she was describing who was pulling her into play and helping her take the world more lightly? I remember how she was always immersed in her studies. And of course, at the age of 16, she started studying economics to get into Cambridge. That was pretty extraordinary to see her so engaged. You can only imagine in English.

[00:07:12] She started to study to get into Cambridge in England. And I just was much more of a free spirit. And I loved to dance. I used to take dance classes. And as you know, I went into acting school because my love was the arts and more of the creative expression.

[00:07:35] And so I always kept wanting her to play more and to engage in little games and be silly. And, you know, it was really amazing because you asked Ariana about comparing two daughters. Do you have two daughters? Yes, yes. Ten and eight. My mother, Courtney, never, never compared us to each other. You know, Ariana was this incredible, brilliant student. And I hated school. I mean, I prayed every night that my math teacher would die.

[00:08:04] Because I thought, well, if she dies, we won't have math anymore. Math to me was incomprehensible. And I remember looking at algebra tests and thinking, what has that got to do with anything about life? So at that age, you know, my mother was amazing. My mother, Ellie Stassinopoulos, which both Ariana and I, as you know, acknowledge a lot.

[00:08:30] So first of all, she got me the math teacher to come and give me private lessons so that I could get the answers and understand, you know. So that was amazing. But whenever the exams came and Ariana would get A's and I would get F, she would come home and bring us flowers. And I said, Mommy, what did I get? And she would say, you passed. You passed to the next grade.

[00:08:59] And that's what matters. And what matters is we didn't, she would literally write it down for me. We didn't bring you here for the math. We brought you here for the joy. Oh, that's so beautiful. Beautiful. What was amazing is that later, many years later, I wrote this book called Wake Up to the Joy of You, 52 Meditations for a Happier and Calmer Life. And later in my life, I kind of rediscovered my joy.

[00:09:27] And it was an amazing thing because, you know, my 20s and my 30s, I so struggled to become a successful actress, to make it in the world, to achieve a certain level of recognition. And it wasn't coming my way. And it would squash my joy. So it was much later, Courtney, that I discovered the power of my heart and the power of being agape. It's like saying, I am agape and I'm enough.

[00:09:57] Hmm. And what, was there a particular moment that reconnected you with that joy? There were so many moments. There were so many moments. Let me share with you one pivotal moment in my life that changed just about everything. Yes. I had been auditioning nonstop for plays and movies, and I wasn't getting anything. I was living in New York by that time.

[00:10:27] We all, with my mother, moved to New York. Ariana had written the biography of Maria Callas, a woman behind the legend that became a humongous bestseller all over the world. And so we moved to New York, and I was taking acting classes. And so imagine this juxtaposition. Here I am, I have this incredibly successful sister who is all over. And here I am struggling to get a little part.

[00:10:54] I wasn't comparing myself to Ariana because I love my sister, and I was so happy for her success. And I was also sharing in her success. It was amazing. But that little girl inside saying, where is mine? You know, where is mine? Where is mine? I talk a lot in my seminars and in my books about mothering yourself. But when you're younger, you don't know how to mother yourself. You start to feel like a victim.

[00:11:23] But basically, at some point, I went to audition for a play, six hours of Greek adaptation of all the plays at Williamstown. And the director then was Greek, Nikos Sakharopoulos. And I auditioned with Joan of Arc. And Bernard Shaw has written this extraordinary play. I highly recommend it about her story. And there is a monologue that she talks to her accusers. And she basically says,

[00:11:55] You promised me my life, but you lie. You think that life is nothing but not being stone dead. I can live on bread and water, but to shut me from the light of the day, So I can no longer go out and see the larks in the trees and hear the soldiers with their banners. That is worse than the furnace that was heated seven times.

[00:12:23] So burn me, burn me at the stake. Because when I go through the fire, I will go through their hearts forever and ever. Because God is with me, and I'm never alone. Wow. So I do the monologue. And Nikos says to me, Oh my God, you're such a talented girl. Because I was and I am very talented.

[00:12:53] That was my tragedy. Here I am so talented. And everybody tells me I'm talented, but I'm not getting what I want. And he called me. I'll never forget it. And he said, My dear girl, I can't hire you because you have such energy that is so unique. That if you are in the Greek chorus, you stick out. And if you give you the leading parts, I need a bigger name. I need, you know, the Sigourney Weavers and the Susan Sarandon.

[00:13:22] And, you know, he named a few actresses. And I said, I have a big name. It's Stassinopoulos. It's very long. It's a big name. Hire me. And so he never gave me the part. So that was like the straw that hit the camel. What did they say, right? Yes. Yes. The straw that stood the camel's back. Now I can't remember it either, but who cares? The straw that hit the camel's back. Yeah. You know, I was taking singing lessons.

[00:13:51] And I go on the bus to go up to 82nd and Broadway in New York. And I'm so despondent. I'm like Persephone in the underworld. I'm like feeling the rug has completely been pulled under. And I go, I don't know where to go next. And I go to the bus and I don't know if you've been in New York City bus or any bus. People are way more depressed than you. Yes, definitely. You feel the depression and the despair of people.

[00:14:19] You don't see anybody smile on the bus, right? And everybody's in the little corner tucked in and contracted. And I go in and it kind of hit me how people were unhappy. And I thought, well, I'm unhappy, but look how much unhappy they are. And I sit next to a woman and I start to talk to her because I'm Greek, you know, and I talk to everybody. And I say, how are you? And she says, I'm good. How are you? And I said, well, I'm depressed. She says, why?

[00:14:47] I just auditioned for a part and I didn't get, she says, are you an actress? I said, I'm an actress who never acts about in my bedroom. And she said, I'm going to be an actress. And I'm now a nurse because I'm a single mom and I wasn't getting work. And I became a nurse to support my son. I said, oh, maybe I should be a nurse. And she said, what did you audition with? And I said, I auditioned with Joan of Arc by Bernard Shaw. And she said, oh, my God, I know that monologue.

[00:15:17] Is that the one that she goes, you promised me my life? And I said, yes. I said, you want me to do it for you? And next to her, I go, you promised me my life, but you lied. You think that life is not, and I'm emoting now. And the whole bus wakes up. And I finish my monologue and the woman is crying.

[00:15:41] And the whole bus applauds me, you know, and she takes my hand and she turns to me and she says, my dear girl, you are so talented. Go do your own thing. Don't wait for anyone to hire you. I mean, I say this now and I feel the chills all over me. It was God speaking to me, Courtney. I get out of the bus feeling taller as the tallest Cypress Street.

[00:16:08] I felt this energy just hit me and I got a sense. My gift is here to serve unconditionally. And I have conditioned it into getting the part on Broadway or in Hollywood. And maybe my gift is for the world.

[00:16:30] And it is for me to use it wherever I can, not just as an actress, but that offering of my gift, my heart, my expression, unconditional. And that's when I connected agape, unconditional love, unconditional giving, unconditional generosity, unconditional living. Wow. Wow.

[00:16:55] And it was a true moment where from depression and despair, I went to this expansion. And I started to, when I went to sing for my singing lesson and I was singing the song, Don't Cry For Me, Argentina. And I started to go, don't cry for me, Argentina. The truth is I never left you. All through my wild days, my mad existence, I kept my promise. Don't keep your distance.

[00:17:25] And I was singing with joy. And my teacher said, Agabi, what happened to you? When I said, Ellie, that was my teacher's name. You know what happened to me? I happened to me. Oh, beautiful. You know, you asked me, when was a moment that was a true moment of openness, of getting it, the aha moment, the spark. And so I then embarked into the question, what is my thing? What is my own thing? Because I didn't know.

[00:17:56] And it's amazing how creativity works. I'm sure you have the same. How do you write a book? How do you marry this guy? How do you have a child? How do these things that are life's work, that is life's chapters, come to you? They come to you because they're in you. It is in your blueprint. And all we ask and we pray is, can you reveal this to me?

[00:18:25] Can you show me my blueprint? If you keep the patience, if you keep the faith, if you keep the openness, don't close down, don't become bitter, don't feel like a victim. When the no's come, go for the yes and keep saying yes to yourself when the world says no. I love that. But what happened after that moment of the buzz was that I ended up creating a one-woman show on the Greek goddesses.

[00:18:55] It was my show. I wrote it. I hired a director. And then I performed it in different theaters around. And it was called Conversations with the Goddesses. So it was a creative endeavor. And that show became very successful. I did it at the Getty Museum, at the Met. I did it at museums all over the country. I did it in Europe.

[00:19:19] So and then I was asked to write a book about it, which was a huge, I mean, it was enormous for me to dare to write a book. And that was a way where I started to trust the creativity, you know. And then I wrote a book called Unbinding the Heart. And it really was about my life story and my mother and what she taught us and how I saw my parents take their last breath.

[00:19:48] And, you know, how I let go, I mean, of relationships and find my relationship with spirit. So I told everything. And that book opened up, I think, my being able to share my heart in a very unabashed way, you know, and that was incredibly beautiful for me because I started to find my calling. Okay, we're going to take a quick break.

[00:20:11] But when we come back, Agape is going to help us go deeper on this elusive aspiration of self-love. Stay with us. We want to hear from you, the Wise Unknown listeners. What's your biggest learning from this week's episode? Record a voice memo and send it to us at thewiseunknown7 at gmail.com. And don't forget to tell us your name and where you're from.

[00:20:39] We may even use your voice in our final episode. And even better, your lesson could end up on the Wise Unknown poster that collaborator Wendy McNaughton is cooking up with us. Either way, thanks for listening. You're awesome. Hi, I'm Adam Grant, and you may know me from the podcast Work Life. As an organizational psychologist, I know that sometimes the best way to solve a problem is to question the way we've always done it.

[00:21:08] On my new show with the TED Audio Collective, Rethinking, I talk to some of today's greatest minds about how they see the world, from scientists to artists, people from Brene Brown to Lin-Manuel Miranda to Mark Cuban, and explore the assumptions they challenge and the mindsets that fuel their success. Find Rethinking wherever you listen. What did witnessing those deaths teach you about wisdom? First of all, that loss is loss.

[00:21:37] And that I know you talk about your father having dementia, am I right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so you know what the loss of someone you love in a different form, his body and he's there, but who he is probably is diminishing. And in that same way, I felt my father struggled for about a year, not with dementia, but with health issues. And there were so many layers to it.

[00:22:05] You know, my parents died three and a half months apart from each other, and I was terribly close to both of them. And they had an incredible healing that I write about in the book, because my father, you know, was unfaithful to my mother and hurt her deeply. And a year before he died, he asked for forgiveness. And it was one of the most profound moments in my life. Wow. He really became so surrendered and egoless and the fragility of the man regretting how he had hurt her.

[00:22:35] I miss them terribly. It took me, you know, quite a while to go through the grief. And I learned how to ask for help because I was grieving. And I learned how to fill the void of their emptiness with more of the fullness of my spirit. And then I moved back with Ariana after my mother died, because my mother lived with Ariana. And I moved back in Los Angeles.

[00:23:02] And that's when I was sharing the girls as teenagers and growing up and became like a second mom to them, because Ariana was divorced. There was a beautiful gift to it all. You know, as my mother left us. And then after that, what I learned is that I've had many dreams of my mother. I feel my mother's presence all the time. You know, Courtney, I'm not one of those enlightened people who understand death.

[00:23:30] You know, I'm very human. It troubles me. But, you know, people we love die suddenly. And we don't know when. And none of us know when we die. That's, I mean, people, when people say to me, I'm anxious. And I said, we're all anxious. We get born. We don't know when we're going to die or how we're going to die. It's pretty logical to be anxious. That's enough to make you extremely anxious. Am I going to go on the plane? Am I going to suffer when I die? Am I going to get very sick?

[00:24:00] Am I going to fall off the cliff? Well, how am I going to die? I'm sorry. We can't tell you. It's a mystery. Well, you don't know the end until you're at the end. And then you're gone. You know? So it's, I don't know. How do you deal with it? Well, it's interesting you ask because I think I have been thinking a lot about how intellectually, you know, this might be my Ariana part of my brain. I'm very interested in death. I'm very fascinated by it.

[00:24:24] But the actual aging and kind of decomposing process, which is what I'm living with my dad, who I'm helping take care of, is so painful and so hard. Although I will say your image of the veil that comes over the curtain, you were saying, I think one of the most beautiful things about being proximate to my dad with dementia is the curtain's gone. He has no stories about himself. He has no ego. He has no identity.

[00:24:54] He has no comparison. He's just profoundly present. And he's still operating from this very unconditionally loving emotional place. And he, by the way, studied Buddhism his whole life. He meditated his whole life. And it's only now that he is fully coming into this Buddha-like form, which is, of course, totally sad and terrible, too. So it's all the things, you know? Does he recognize you? His heart recognizes me. He doesn't know my name. Right.

[00:25:24] But he knows I'm his person, like in this very deep way. When he sees me, he's like, oh, my person's here. And when he, last night, actually, my brother, my mom and I were standing next to him. He goes, we all just love each other. And I said, yeah, we do, Dad. Oh, my God. He said that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He feels, he feels the love. It's like there's no curtain. There's just the unconditional love that you describe. Oh, my God. That's incredible. That's incredible. It's quite beautiful. That's incredible.

[00:25:54] It's so beautiful. Is your mother well? She's okay. I mean, she's depleted from taking care of him. Yeah. But, you know, she's, she's, and I was thinking about when you said you were loved so well, because I was loved so well. And I think it's such a wild blessing. It's like just outrageous. And it makes me wonder when I think about wisdom and my own capacity to teach others, I'm like, I mean, I got the luckiest start in the whole world.

[00:26:21] And I don't know what it's like to spend your life really needing to reparent yourself. So how do you think about that when you work with people where you're saying I was loved so well, and they're saying, well, I wasn't, you know? Yes. Well, I say, I say you, you just start by unwrapping the jewel inside of you. You know, it's wrapped in many, many layers. And it has beliefs and it has judgments. And I say, you start by getting to know you.

[00:26:50] And it's this beautiful poem by Wilcott, you know? Yes. Yes. The stranger that was yourself. I wish we had it here. I would read it to you. But it's like, take down the masks, take down the pictures, take down and learn to love the ones you've been with that you've neglected. Love after love, right? Love after love. Yes. And I have a poem that I'm going to read to you because I wrote it during the Aegean and it's called Coming Home.

[00:27:20] And I think that's what I would say to people, you know, how do you bring yourself home? You write letters to yourself. When I work with people, I say, write a love letter to yourself. Take a picture of yourself when you were six and when you were five and when you were 11 and when you became a teenager and then your first love affair and then your first rejection,

[00:27:47] your first betrayal, you know, and start to unravel the story of you. Look at these pictures of your life and say, this is when I felt separate and this is when I felt neglected and this is when I felt alone. This is when I felt I didn't know where to look. And you go and you go, and this is what this whole book is about. But I was here, says God. But I was here, says love. And so you start to hear the whisper of your spirit little by little.

[00:28:16] You trust your spirit and you cry and then the spirit comes in. And then you write another letter to yourself and then you open your heart little by little and then you realize it's you and you and you and you. There's no other. One of the phrases is love after love. It says, when you neglected yourself for another.

[00:28:46] Because we go to another to love us and nobody loves us like we want to be loved. Hello? No. They didn't get the manual. I mean, do you have any? Oh my God, this person loves me exactly how I want to be loved. So you just write a manual how I want to be loved. And there's nothing more deflating than telling your partner, can you please say this so I feel loved? And then they say it and you're like, oh man, okay. Exactly. And you never say I love you the way I want to hear I love you.

[00:29:16] I love you! You know, and it's like, I think we should write this book, Courtney says, how do you want to be loved? And then give it to yourself. Exactly. Because I'm sorry to say, this is it. You know, it's you and you. And it's hard. It's hard. It's just, listen, nobody said this is easy. Nobody teaches us at school.

[00:29:40] Have you ever heard any school teacher or university teacher or Ivy League teacher or anybody in the academic world say, the most important thing in your life is to learn to love and be compassionate to yourself? I never heard that. My mother said it to me. But nobody teaches us. There is no curriculum. And there is no billboards that say, how are you going to love yourself today? Okay.

[00:30:08] So we walk around feeling bereft. Yeah. And alone. Or confused about what the real assignment is. Right? That's beautiful. What is your assignment? Exactly. So, you know, I say, wake up every morning and say, I need to take care of this human being that's bestowed in me called Courtney, called Agabi. And she's mine. And before my husband, before my father, before my children, before anything,

[00:30:36] I've got to find out what does Courtney need. Oh, you know what? She needs more water. Or she needs this tea that she loves. She needs to take more walks. She needs to talk to that friend. You know, I said to the other day to a friend of mine, she was so unhappy. She's got so many problems. I said, today your assignment is to find one thing that makes you happy and go do it. And she said to me, I went and bought my favorite apples. I love that.

[00:31:05] I said, all right, that's it. You got it. Bingo. Assignment A plus gold star. The thing that we all have to learn is that life and joy and happiness is in the details. It's not in the big picture, you know, because there is no big picture. It's right now. Will you close us out by saying one more thing about why focusing on ourselves and loving ourselves is not selfish? Yes, absolutely.

[00:31:34] And then can I read that poem after? Yes. And then finish us with a poem. That would be beautiful. When I speak, I open all my talks with Greek music and I get everybody dancing because that makes me happy. So find the things that trigger you, that your spirit rejoices, that your girl or your boy, if you're a boy and you're listening, you love.

[00:31:57] And when you have that, open your heart to start to allow other human beings to share from that. And then you become a blessing. I think children, for example, well, they want their parents to be happy because when your mother and your father are happy, you are happy. You feel good. I mean, that was my prayer. Can you please God make my mother happy?

[00:32:23] Because I know she loved me and I know she loved Ariana, but I didn't feel her happiness because she was so sad about my dad. You don't want your parents to be sad and unhappy because as a child, you can't help them. So find your happiness and you know that to give to your children. So fill yourself, fill your cup. It's really the, it's the basic thing.

[00:32:48] You know, I'm building a course now that I call it the primary gift of life, loving yourself. People are not nice to themselves, Courtney, let alone love themselves. Does that answer your question? Yes, it's a beautiful answer. Give us your poem. I can't wait to hear this. So there I was overlooking the Aegean and a lot of my life, I have felt this sense of loneliness.

[00:33:11] When I was living in New York, especially by myself, I was still integrating a lot and I had broken up with a man that I thought I was going to marry. And my mother and my sister and my nieces were away in LA. And I used to feel this loneliness at night, especially. I went to Greece one summer and I was overlooking the Aegean. And I remember a friend of mine had said to me, how can you be lonely? You are with my favorite person in the world, you.

[00:33:42] And I never forgot it. And I said, I have to make me my favorite person, right? So I looked at the Aegean and I wrote this poem. I used to be so lonely. Lonely at my house. Lonely when I got back to sleep. Lonely when I was alone. When I was with people, I was never lonely.

[00:34:08] But when by myself, loneliness would hit my home. And then one day I heard a voice. Why don't you move in? I live alone too. You would like it here. Move in with me. I looked around and it was me talking to me. My house was empty. Wow, I said. I left that beautiful place a long time ago.

[00:34:37] Going out looking for others to fill my house. And I left my house empty. Move in. Move in with me. You would like it here. You will never have to pay rent. I'll never evict you. You will be my honored guest. I know you. Your likes, your dislikes, your little quintessential idiosyncrasies. I know you.

[00:35:05] I'll treat you nice and kind and give you lots of space. Move in. Come, come. Move in with me. I looked into my eyes, my heart, and saw the love for me. I surrendered. I opened the door and moved in into my empty house that I had left a long time ago. It was exactly as I left it. It had just missed me. I moved in and never left.

[00:35:35] I never felt alone anymore. For my house filled with love once I accepted such a kind, tender invitation. I love that. I love that. That's such a beautiful note to end on. Thank you so much for your wisdom today and that beautiful poem. It will really all stay with me in such a big way. Thank you for your time.

[00:36:05] So what I want to ask everybody is move in. Move in with yourself. Move in with yourself. Move in all parts of you. Not rejecting or neglecting any parts. The sad parts, the upset parts, the parts who feel less. Just move them in. And as you love them, they transcend and they unfold and they transform. And I just rejoice when somebody says, you know, I really got it.

[00:36:33] Like, when I got it, I went, can I help others get it? And I think your podcast is incredible, what you're doing, bringing people who are such gifts and gems and really are sparkles in this earth, but nobody recognizes them and just bringing them into the light. And I encourage everybody to bring people who they find into the light.

[00:36:58] You just honor me and Ariana by letting us share our love for each other. Thank you so much, sweetheart. I love you and may this flourish to being a wonderful gift for people. Thank you.

[00:37:37] Thank you. And our sound engineer is Eric Gomez. Our art is by Wendy McNaughton and our music is by Kumar Butler. I'm Courtney Martin and this is The Wise Unknown.