Courtney and Golda talk about how the series was created, look back at some memorable moments from our guests, and hear from listeners. Plus, stay tuned for how you can get your hands on the Wise Unknown poster.
[00:00:00] So Wise Unknown audience, you're in for a special treat today because you're going
[00:00:13] to meet the Wise Unknown human behind the podcast.
[00:00:17] Golda.
[00:00:18] Yo yo yo.
[00:00:20] Hi, Courtney.
[00:00:23] Do you hate me already?
[00:00:25] Already I do.
[00:00:26] You're like why did I agree to do this?
[00:00:28] Correct.
[00:00:29] I'll be right.
[00:00:33] Golda is used to being the woman behind the curtain.
[00:00:37] She is the brilliant producer who conceived of this show with me, created it, made it actually
[00:00:44] sound good, kept all the trains running, got all the amazing collaborators who worked on
[00:00:49] the show, but she doesn't love being pushed into the spotlight, which is very meta.
[00:00:55] Is that why you're pushing me into that?
[00:00:57] Exactly.
[00:00:58] Golda did email me this morning with alternatives of how else we could handle this episode that
[00:01:04] did not include her being in the spotlight.
[00:01:07] So here you are.
[00:01:08] How does it feel to be in the spotlight, Golda?
[00:01:09] It's really squarmy.
[00:01:11] It's really squarmy.
[00:01:12] I don't like it one bit.
[00:01:14] When are we done?
[00:01:15] Are you feeling guilty?
[00:01:16] You participated in doing this to other humble people?
[00:01:19] No, because that was.
[00:01:21] That was my job.
[00:01:25] Obviously, the karma is coming back to bite me.
[00:01:30] Squarmy, squarmy.
[00:01:32] Squarmy, squarmy, squarmy.
[00:01:35] Also, yeah, it's critical for you to know that Golda and I, for the vast majority of our
[00:01:41] relationship, only knew each other online, which is the case for a lot of pandemic era friendships
[00:01:48] and collaborations.
[00:01:50] But you and I met in New York because I was going to New York for some work.
[00:01:54] And I said, let's meet up for coffee.
[00:01:55] We have to meet up in person.
[00:01:57] And then I said, let's keep working together.
[00:02:00] Like I have some ideas, maybe you have ideas and we talked about a bunch of ideas.
[00:02:04] And one of those ideas was what we didn't then know was called the wise unknown.
[00:02:09] But was this thing I'd been carrying around for years which was a deep desire to get
[00:02:15] well known people to introduce me to unknown people.
[00:02:18] So that's part of what we're going to talk about today.
[00:02:20] Anyway, I was so thrilled that you reacted to that one because one of the things I associate
[00:02:27] you with is like no bullshit.
[00:02:29] That if you react positively to something you mean it and you're not like, you know,
[00:02:34] you just don't seem like someone who pretends to be into stuff that you're not into.
[00:02:38] That's right, right?
[00:02:39] It's because I'm not good at it.
[00:02:40] Like I kind of suck it.
[00:02:41] I suck at pretending.
[00:02:42] One of the things I love about you.
[00:02:46] We had this conversation about a few different ideas and I remember on the subway on the
[00:02:52] way home after I met you, this one was still in my head like the whole subway ride home.
[00:02:58] And I thought there's something here, you know?
[00:03:01] And I will say there are lots of times, especially as I get older when what my gut is trying to
[00:03:08] tell me is very clear.
[00:03:10] It's a very clear signal.
[00:03:12] And I can't always explain it.
[00:03:14] I can't always say why.
[00:03:16] I want to do any particular thing, but I know that I have to do it or I know that it's
[00:03:20] the right thing to do.
[00:03:22] And I felt that way about the wise unknown, what became the wise unknown.
[00:03:25] I thought there's something here we should explore it.
[00:03:27] And I think because what I heard in my head in terms of like the vision of how this show
[00:03:33] would be, it would be something quieter than what we have out there.
[00:03:39] We have so many loud things out there.
[00:03:43] And there's absolutely a place for all of that.
[00:03:47] But sometimes quiet things are very powerful and I'm so glad that we sort of saw it through
[00:03:52] all the way.
[00:03:53] That's the best.
[00:03:54] I love how you describe that.
[00:03:56] You also wiggled your way out of explaining who you are, so I'm just going to brag about
[00:04:00] you for a second.
[00:04:01] So Goulda is an extraordinary producer.
[00:04:05] She worked at Vox on many podcasts.
[00:04:07] She teaches at Columbia University.
[00:04:11] She has worked on probably some of your favorite shows.
[00:04:15] She created her own show, which you have to listen to and we'll put in a show notes about
[00:04:19] her mother's journey with cancer.
[00:04:22] So she's done all kinds of things.
[00:04:24] But this is one of the things you've said.
[00:04:27] And I've heard other people say now that I've been a little bit more experienced with the
[00:04:31] podcast world is that we made this show unlike anybody has ever made a podcast, I guess.
[00:04:37] People are just like, what?
[00:04:40] This is the team.
[00:04:41] This is the distribution of labor.
[00:04:43] Can you explain a little bit about that because I'm kind of like, I don't even know how
[00:04:48] weird it is.
[00:04:49] It is kind of weird.
[00:04:51] And actually it does make me sit back and think, what?
[00:04:54] Like this is a little bit of a head scratcher.
[00:04:56] How did we sort of make it?
[00:04:58] But basically so it's you and me mostly in driving the thing.
[00:05:03] And then we have a couple of really crucial collaborators.
[00:05:08] So let's start with Wendy.
[00:05:09] Wendy McNaughton, who is the artist behind all of the artwork around the wise unknown.
[00:05:16] And her work is just it just really takes me back when I see her stuff.
[00:05:20] It's just disarming in so many ways.
[00:05:22] So Wendy designed the visual look of the show and then Kumar Butler.
[00:05:28] Kumar Butler composed our music.
[00:05:30] You introduced me to him.
[00:05:32] I love talking to Kumar.
[00:05:33] We've just had long conversations that had nothing to do with the show eventually but.
[00:05:39] And Kumar HV said is both a musician who does amazing work of his own, creative work of
[00:05:44] his own.
[00:05:45] He's also a teacher.
[00:05:46] He's a public school teacher which makes me so happy.
[00:05:48] Right.
[00:05:49] And he's just a lovely guy as well.
[00:05:51] And then Jessica is our associate producer and just did a lot of the cutting and editing
[00:05:57] and that kind of thing on the show.
[00:06:00] And then we had Eric Gomez, who's a sound engineer and designer also incredibly talented.
[00:06:05] So we had these folks who kind of came in and picked up a certain part of the show and
[00:06:10] took it away, you know, came back and made it glorious.
[00:06:14] But basically I think it's just been kind of you and me.
[00:06:18] And most podcasts are not produced like that.
[00:06:22] It's sort of like a team of people that comes in and does stuff to three times the size
[00:06:29] of this tiny little team that we have.
[00:06:32] But it's worked out so well, I think.
[00:06:34] And what I've learned now that I've worked on other podcasts is a lot of like premeditation.
[00:06:40] I think we were just sort of riding on trust.
[00:06:45] A lot of the time in faith that like, you know, we didn't pre-interview the wise unknowns.
[00:06:50] We said to the famous people, just introduce us to the person and then we just interviewed
[00:06:55] them.
[00:06:56] We just did it.
[00:06:57] And it turned out so beautifully.
[00:07:00] It really did.
[00:07:01] You know, I will say it made me really nervous to not know what I was about to get because
[00:07:07] I do come from a background of just like heavy editing, heavy gay keeping all of that.
[00:07:12] So it really was, it felt like a really big risk to take.
[00:07:17] I mean, all of the folks that we got were just so great.
[00:07:20] I think I did speak to Dwayne before we recorded him, just as a way to sort of say hello.
[00:07:28] Here's a link.
[00:07:29] Here's what we're going to do with the show.
[00:07:30] He's a great guy to talk to.
[00:07:32] He's a great guy to interview.
[00:07:34] And when I put the phone down, I thought, oh, this is going to be great.
[00:07:38] This is just going to be wonderful.
[00:07:39] Yeah.
[00:07:40] I mean, he's so lovable.
[00:07:42] It's just unbelievable.
[00:07:43] Yeah, lovable.
[00:07:44] He is.
[00:07:45] Well, let's get into it.
[00:07:46] Let's talk about some of these episodes and like some of our favorite moments.
[00:07:50] I think for both of us, the first episode with Dwayne Kennedy and W. Camel Bell, I mean,
[00:07:55] there's so much in that episode, so much wisdom from Dwayne that I found so moving.
[00:08:01] But I think for me, for whatever reason, that was really the moment when it clicked for
[00:08:06] me that in, you know, 20 years of interviewing people, I have always been invited to interview
[00:08:13] ambitious people, like, definitionally ambitious people.
[00:08:16] And all of a sudden, I was just like, oh my gosh.
[00:08:19] I can't believe how imbalanced that is when I think about all the stages I've been on
[00:08:27] and all of the conversations I've had that like 100% of those people were definitionally,
[00:08:34] like very traditionally ambitious.
[00:08:36] And I loved that in the course of that episode, Dwayne did reclaim his own sense of ambition.
[00:08:41] He said, you know, my ambition is to make my friends laugh eventually he got to that place.
[00:08:45] So I did, I loved that.
[00:08:46] But that is really just stuck with me in such a huge way.
[00:08:50] He also talked about like what is the work itself?
[00:08:53] You know, is the work any good?
[00:08:55] And I'm the one judging my own work and it has to be good enough for me.
[00:09:00] And I really loved that because that's the other thing, you know, our work is constantly
[00:09:04] measured by what other people think of it.
[00:09:08] And we are at the whim of other people.
[00:09:12] You know, what was that line?
[00:09:13] Hell is other people.
[00:09:15] And I love that lens on it as well that he thought, you know, the work has to measure
[00:09:19] up to what I think is good work.
[00:09:23] That really resonated with me actually when he said that.
[00:09:25] Yeah, what a paradox that like he doesn't take himself seriously in this way that's
[00:09:31] like beautiful and disarming but at the same time I left that interview being like Dwayne
[00:09:36] is like a great artist.
[00:09:38] Like he's like an artist for our times.
[00:09:40] Yeah.
[00:09:41] And then at the same token, like especially remember when he talked about that if he's
[00:09:45] like bombing on stage sometimes he's like how spectacularly can I bomb?
[00:09:50] How far can I go?
[00:09:51] Yeah.
[00:09:52] I thought about that a lot because I was like, that's a great artist.
[00:09:54] Yeah.
[00:09:55] Like a real artist says that.
[00:09:57] Yeah.
[00:09:58] And I've thought about that many times.
[00:09:59] The other great thing about that episode was we were wrapping up and I think you said like
[00:10:05] okay, turning off the audio and all of a sudden come out pops back on.
[00:10:09] Like his video had been off the whole time.
[00:10:12] But then as soon as you said the recordings then come out visual pops back on and there
[00:10:15] he is and he's clearly listened to the whole thing and he just like starts trying to
[00:10:19] correct the record unlike many different points, right?
[00:10:23] And it's a curious thing because he's not the only one who did that even when you say
[00:10:27] all right, goodbye.
[00:10:28] I'm going to be talking to your person now.
[00:10:31] There were a few folks that just kind of stuck around.
[00:10:33] I guess out of curiosity or what?
[00:10:36] I don't know but they stuck around.
[00:10:38] Not even a few.
[00:10:39] I think it was the majority.
[00:10:40] And it was funny because part of our pitch, of course to famous people is like this will
[00:10:44] take 15 minutes of your time.
[00:10:46] It's not a big ask and so it was so interesting to watch them dig in deeper and be like no
[00:10:51] no, I really want to listen to this whole thing.
[00:10:54] That was very powerful.
[00:10:55] It was.
[00:10:56] That moment with Camel and Dwayne was also such a sweet moment of male friendship.
[00:11:01] Clearly Camel and Dwayne said some things to each other about how they value each other
[00:11:05] in ways they never had before.
[00:11:06] And that was very tender.
[00:11:07] And actually we saw that a few times like with Simeon and Twilight, I felt also there were
[00:11:11] some moments where you're like wow this is like a friendship thing not just an unknown
[00:11:16] wise kind of wisdom thing.
[00:11:18] This is also a chance for people to say some things to each other that they might not
[00:11:21] have said before which was very sweet.
[00:11:23] I'm remembering now though Twilight was squarming when you were saying nice things about her
[00:11:27] and now I know what Twilight was feeling.
[00:11:30] I'm sorry Twilight.
[00:11:34] Goldie relates.
[00:11:35] Well speaking of Twilight, I mean I found Twilight recorded from Hawaii.
[00:11:42] She lives in Oakland but she grew up in Hawaii and that episode is a lot about what growing
[00:11:47] up in Hawaii taught her about the wisdom of limitations and not belonging and how that
[00:11:53] sort of socialized her for her rest of her life.
[00:11:57] And I did find it quite dramatic that just weeks after we did that interview there were
[00:12:01] the fires in Hawaii.
[00:12:02] Thankfully, they did not impact her mother's land which she described so beautifully in
[00:12:07] that episode but it just felt really poignant that we had recorded that conversation not having
[00:12:12] any idea what would come next.
[00:12:14] Yeah and Twilight's descriptions of the land and not just the land but the kind of the
[00:12:19] space there were so vivid as well they were so vivid was kind of kind of stunning when
[00:12:25] that happened.
[00:12:26] Yeah.
[00:12:27] I mean we didn't intend to make a particularly like dark or intense podcast but I do feel
[00:12:36] like there were quite a few moments that just sort of took my breath away in that way.
[00:12:40] Like I'm thinking about when Dr. Bernard Chang who's an ER doctor and was Adam Grant's mentor
[00:12:46] talked about how when he has a patient who passes, who dies on his watch, he'll kind of look
[00:12:53] at their shoes and socks and think did they know this was the last day they would put on
[00:12:57] their socks and shoes.
[00:12:58] And I just like cannot stop thinking about that all these months later.
[00:13:03] You know so that was the first interview we ever recorded for the show when we were still
[00:13:07] sort of thinking about what the show could be.
[00:13:10] And I think that really unsettled me when I heard him say that, you know the context around
[00:13:16] that was that when someone comes in maybe they've had a heart attack and they don't make
[00:13:22] it through the day.
[00:13:24] Bernard in his mind is rolling the timeline all the way back to the start of the day and
[00:13:29] thinking when this person put their socks and shoes on, they didn't know that they were
[00:13:34] going to have a heart attack.
[00:13:35] They would have made decisions about which socks which shoes.
[00:13:38] And that's it.
[00:13:39] That's the last decision they would have ever made about socks and shoes or anything else.
[00:13:43] Yeah.
[00:13:44] Well and I kind of draw a line in my head between Bernard and Joyce in some ways.
[00:13:50] Joyce Johnson who I Jen Poo introduced us to because you know she talked about some
[00:13:54] profoundly upsetting violence that she had endured in her life and the grace with which
[00:14:00] she talked about it.
[00:14:01] And I mean both of them sort of exuded this sense of like you just like never know what's
[00:14:06] going to happen in life.
[00:14:08] And yet they both seem so grounded and steady and that they interestingly they both drew
[00:14:16] great sort of strength from their parents.
[00:14:20] They both talked about their parents in really interesting ways and kind of the lineages
[00:14:23] that they came from.
[00:14:25] Yeah, it felt like a real honor and privilege to be in conversation with people like
[00:14:31] that who are able to sort of hold on to the fact that we really have so little control
[00:14:37] and not you know kind of wither in the face of that which I sometimes feel like I do.
[00:14:43] Yeah, these are very grounded people and I don't know.
[00:14:47] I don't know how they manage it.
[00:14:49] I mean the other thing about Joyce is and I guess because I listen so intently to these
[00:14:53] things.
[00:14:54] Joyce even though she was talking about some really heartbreaking harrowing moments her
[00:15:00] voice was really steady throughout.
[00:15:03] I think that points a lot to her character just kind of the steadfast nature of her and
[00:15:08] I know she's seen a lot and lived through a lot.
[00:15:12] Her voice was just really beautiful as she told these stories about how also when she
[00:15:16] was a college freshman at Duke and she had used up the $5 that she was sent with on day
[00:15:23] one.
[00:15:24] And she called home and asked her mom for more money and her mom's like well there is
[00:15:29] no more money.
[00:15:31] And she had a decision to make them of should she go home or continue on with call it and
[00:15:35] she somehow you know found a way to keep going.
[00:15:38] I mean she just made a decision.
[00:15:40] She made a decision.
[00:15:41] She was going to stay and she was just going to make it through and I hear that steadiness
[00:15:47] in her voice as she's telling all these stories as well.
[00:15:49] Yeah.
[00:15:50] I was thinking there's almost something like there's this way in which in that interview
[00:15:56] when I'm listening to Joyce and I'm kind of like wrapping my heart and head around the
[00:16:02] quality of human that I'm interacting with where I feel like my whole being gets like
[00:16:09] clarified like I'm like Courtney show up to this in the most exquisite form you're
[00:16:15] capable of.
[00:16:17] This is like a profound honor and I've had that at different moments I'm thinking if
[00:16:22] I did an interview on a stage once with this incredible man Frank Ostecesky who like co
[00:16:27] founded this and hospice project and as a beautiful man who I interviewed after he'd
[00:16:33] had a stroke and he was very nervous about doing an interview and we had to sort of
[00:16:37] talk about how we were going to work through it on stage because cognitively a lot had
[00:16:41] shifted for him and he just wasn't sure.
[00:16:43] He's a very public figure but he hadn't like done a public talk and we got on a stage
[00:16:47] and I had that same feeling of like Courtney show up in your most exquisite form like this
[00:16:52] is an absolute honor and you need to be like as present as you've ever been in your life
[00:17:00] and like hold this in this like gentle clear way and I felt that with him.
[00:17:06] I haven't felt it as frequently as one might think you would with like I've interviewed
[00:17:11] some pretty famous people and it doesn't correspond with the fame that I have that feeling
[00:17:16] but with Joyce I felt it and with many of our wise unknowns I felt it was just like show
[00:17:22] up.
[00:17:23] This is a moment show up show up show up you know and I not that it had to be perfect
[00:17:28] but just that like my full humanity had to be there in a way that's like not true of
[00:17:34] so many other interviews I've done where it's like okay this is a procedure that I you
[00:17:38] know I need to be like on point and handle this well but it's like a whole different thing.
[00:17:43] Okay we're going to pause here for quick break back in a minute.
[00:17:56] We want to hear from you the wise unknown listeners what's your key takeaway from this
[00:18:01] week's episode you know the thing that you'll share with your partners you're falling
[00:18:05] asleep tonight or maybe right on a sticky note and then probably lose somewhere in the
[00:18:09] growing chaos on your desk such as me anyway record a little voice memo and send it to
[00:18:15] us at the wise unknown seven at gmail.com tell us your name and where you're from and what
[00:18:23] you think the lesson of this episode is we are going to talk through all the nominations
[00:18:29] from our awesome audience in the eighth and final episode we may even use your voice on
[00:18:33] air and even better we're going to pick seven of the most resonant lessons and make a poster
[00:18:38] with collaborator artist Wendy McNutton.
[00:18:41] Thanks for listening and learning alongside us you're so awesome
[00:18:50] I'm Shankar Vedantam host of a podcast called My Unsung Hero it's a show about acts of kindness
[00:18:58] that changed someone's life she came straight up to me she looked at me in the eyes and she smiled
[00:19:04] and all this suddenly look up and this hand slides to warm chocolate chip cookies across the desk.
[00:19:13] My Unsung Hero listen and renew your faith in humanity.
[00:19:18] It's just the presence you know the presence of some of these folks I'm thinking now about Ted
[00:19:29] as you're saying that Ted talked about parenting and I know you and I talk about parenting a lot
[00:19:35] and I think one of the things that I remember him saying that I then wrote on a post-it note
[00:19:40] and stuck up on my wall is he said tell your children that you have a wisdom inside of you.
[00:19:48] And this is like alien to me right because I think I think I've always told my children here's
[00:19:55] what you have to do. I've never said to them you already know what to do kid but I think he's
[00:20:01] absolutely right and I think it doesn't matter how old your kid is either and I come from a
[00:20:07] background that sort of believed in and I think I still do believe in a lot of discipline and
[00:20:13] rigor and all of this sort of stuff. And so initially there's a part of my brain that's like
[00:20:19] wait a second this is a little Lucy Goosey what's going on here but I think that's so true and
[00:20:25] I've been trying ever since I heard Ted say that my oldest just went off to college and now I say
[00:20:31] that to him all the time he's gonna turn around one day and say oh for God's sake mom why don't you
[00:20:37] just tell me what to do okay because I know that sometimes a relief to be told what to do but I
[00:20:42] firmly believe that now I firmly believe that everybody has that wisdom inside of them
[00:20:48] that doesn't come from education it doesn't come from school it doesn't come from anything else but
[00:20:53] being loved and supported through their lives. And you know the courage is like well are you
[00:20:59] gonna listen are you gonna listen to that wisdom or not? And in fact you know I think part of what Ted
[00:21:07] was saying was schooling and parental authorities and everybody else can disengage you from that
[00:21:13] that's right. It can actually turn a sure ability to like be in touch with that yeah that interview
[00:21:18] was so deep I mean I don't think Ted would be bothered I think he'd laugh by hearing that like
[00:21:22] when I was doing the research on him first of all we asked Ashley Judd you know who's this like
[00:21:27] incredible intersectional feminist who's like studied at Harvard basically was the linchpin and
[00:21:33] breaking open the Harvey Weinstein case like you know just a very powerful feminist force and she
[00:21:39] picks this old white dude who online looks like he's like a financial expert like I remember I was
[00:21:45] researching I was like I trust Ashley's on this because like you know I just really deeply respect her
[00:21:52] having interacted with her a little bit and I know there must be some substance here that I'm not
[00:21:58] understanding but like the books Ted has written you would not necessarily think he would be
[00:22:05] you know making gold a scribble on sticky notes and like change our approach to parenting
[00:22:11] and this second we got on with him and started talking it was like it was one of those moments I
[00:22:16] was describing of like Courtney show up for this like this is an exquisite soul you have to like
[00:22:22] be on his level as much as you possibly can not that I could because you know he's just really
[00:22:28] powerful human for me a lot of that interview felt like it was about this sort of like inner child wisdom
[00:22:34] which is part of what you're saying gold of like we're all born on earth in a very particular form
[00:22:40] and there's something about our souls and like who we very specifically are that we have to hold
[00:22:45] on to and be very tender with and nurture instead of you know letting the world tell us is like
[00:22:51] the wrong way to be and I just identified with that so much I mean I've always felt far too
[00:22:57] sensitive and tender and empathic for the world and I know my mom was always scared of that as she
[00:23:01] was raising me was just like oh god what am I gonna do with this girl you know like she just
[00:23:06] really feels things but you know here I am doing these interviews because I really feel things
[00:23:10] and hopefully like it's useful to other people and like so I don't know I just I found
[00:23:14] that so powerful and I went into San Francisco after we did that interview and I remember I was
[00:23:20] on the bar train now just looking at every single person and I was like oh my god she has an
[00:23:26] inner wisdom in a inner child and he has it and I was like I'm like on psychedelics right now like
[00:23:32] I have never actually done psychedelics but I have to say I'm like pretty sure that just listening
[00:23:38] to Ted was like psychedelics for me yeah so weird the world of that episode was a very interesting one
[00:23:46] and you kind of stepped into that world and then stepped out of it yeah it was kind of hard like I
[00:23:51] needed reentry like I was like whoa I am like not prepared to just interview with people in a normal
[00:23:57] you were texting me you were texting me when you were on the on the train I was like what has
[00:24:01] happened to this girl you know like she is on psychedelics but maybe I am too Ted could tell us
[00:24:07] I was also when you're saying Melusi Goosey thing I was laughing to myself golded because I remember
[00:24:12] one of the things when we finally got to meet in person that you said to me you're just like
[00:24:15] now I just need you to know like I don't always agree with you like sometimes I read something
[00:24:21] you've written and I just have to like walk around the block and I was like I love this
[00:24:28] yeah I'm just gonna raise this let's let's put this on the table have you and I ever disagreed
[00:24:34] in the making of why is unknown though I'm trying to think I look we must have we must have
[00:24:40] we must have disagreed on something or maybe we just do this thing where just discuss stuff you know
[00:24:49] well you never told me it was crazy we weren't pre-interviewing people was that something like
[00:24:54] if we had talked about you we've been like Courtney we have to pre-interview people
[00:24:58] like why didn't you tell me that um I guess I thought you knew
[00:25:02] we both thought the other person knew what they were doing turns out yeah not at all yeah um
[00:25:10] but you know I do think that I accepted right at the beginning that doing this show would be
[00:25:17] taking a creative risk audio producers are control freaks and as well they should be yeah
[00:25:24] and a lot of this was like well I'm not in control of this so some of it I think it was just a
[00:25:30] decision on my part we're gonna take a risk and make this show and I think we came with a spirit
[00:25:36] of experimentation right from the get goal maybe it's like we created something more improvisational
[00:25:44] than most podcasts like for people who listen to podcasts the goal of many podcasts are to make
[00:25:50] it feel very organic when it's actually quite pre-planned and produced and down to the little detail
[00:25:59] but to make you feel as if you're like a long for this organic ride in our case it was actually an
[00:26:05] organic ride like if it felt improvisational that's because it was I mean we you know I always had
[00:26:10] a list of questions and we we did talk about some of the things we wanted to hit it's not like we
[00:26:16] were flying without any sense of what we were doing but we it was very improvisational to that
[00:26:21] point I'm like this is so funny because we're recording this thing and our funders gonna listen
[00:26:27] like well we gave them some money to do this because we thought they knew what they were doing and
[00:26:32] apparently they had no idea but I just want to say to Kyle Reese and to to Chi at I know her I think
[00:26:39] I first of all I don't actually think they are listening to that thinking that because they
[00:26:42] were the perfect funders for us like that was another thing we had to figure out a pay for this thing
[00:26:46] and you know the financial kind of world of podcasting is very confusing and we did do a lot of
[00:26:53] thinking about that and conversations about that with smart people about like in this constantly
[00:26:58] changing landscape of podcast production and dissemination like how do we want to do this and
[00:27:04] ultimately I think gold and I did feel like if we're going to be so improvisational we're going
[00:27:08] to like take this risk we want control we want creative control and so that meant we had to figure
[00:27:13] out how to fund it and that meant we had to ask people for some money which is like not my
[00:27:18] strong suit but I felt so excited about this that I felt like it wasn't actually that hard to have
[00:27:24] conversations with funders and just be like we think this is amazing if you do make it with us
[00:27:30] and if not no worries and we ended up being lucky enough to find two funders who just instantly
[00:27:35] fell in love with the idea and have both been like 100% like you have creative control do what you
[00:27:44] want we can't wait to listen like just very awesome about it so I do want to shout out
[00:27:50] she and Kyle who are both by the way like totally wise unknown kind of people yeah
[00:27:55] don't you think yeah I do and but how wonderful to also for their faith in this show as well
[00:28:01] one interesting thing I think about us being this two women band is basically that like we also made
[00:28:07] this the way we wanted to make it with the timing and pacing that we wanted so we we're recording
[00:28:13] these and of course this is one of the luxuries of mapping like a time sensitive show but we
[00:28:17] recorded these throughout 2023 most of the recordings happened before July and then you and I both
[00:28:25] took time off to take care of our loved ones to like restore ourselves etc and then we launched in
[00:28:32] October and that actually is quite beautiful too like so just like a small note but one that I
[00:28:38] think a lot of our listeners would probably appreciate knowing that we really like literally
[00:28:43] for our work life balance like made this in a way that worked for us right yeah that too is quite
[00:28:49] rare I think in the podcasting industry coordinate by the time July the end of June came around
[00:28:55] I was really close to burnt out which happens to me at least once a year apparently
[00:29:00] and this time I was determined to take a vacation as well and I in fact after the vacation had to
[00:29:06] go to India to see my grandmother and so all this life stuff happened and it was great because you
[00:29:13] and I had decided well the life stuff is important and we should do what we need to do for ourselves
[00:29:19] and for our families and we are also on top of all things to do with the podcast that's wonderful
[00:29:25] to be able to do that yeah I so appreciate that now that I am working on a weekly show I just have
[00:29:33] such appreciation for the way we didn't grind this out so then we launched in October beautifully
[00:29:40] we got to launch in a certain way kind of live together at the Omega Institute in Ryan Beck New York
[00:29:45] because we recorded our Isabella and the Laurie Bar episode there and Golda came up and I flew over
[00:29:53] and so we got to physically be together which was so nice and we got to be in a room with hundreds
[00:29:58] of people and seeing their reaction to it and that was so moving because so much of
[00:30:06] podcast creation is virtual and is not you know physically in person with people and when we launched
[00:30:11] it at the conference I would be like it lunched at the conference and people would be like oh my god
[00:30:15] I've been thinking about my wise unknown and I called my sister and I told her it was her and she
[00:30:19] couldn't believe it and so it was it was an early indication for me like oh this podcast is going
[00:30:25] to work on people in very interesting ways and create a bunch of like intimate conversations that
[00:30:31] we might never know anything about which is so special it's amazing yeah so here we are on a laptop
[00:30:39] talking to each other in these tiny little boxes and you know the as creators we make work and
[00:30:47] we write stuff and we pull together audio episodes and then it goes out into the world
[00:30:55] and I think it's when it comes back to you and it always comes back to you in a different form
[00:30:59] than you send it out that's when that that really is a special moment I think when people
[00:31:06] say to you what you did meant something to me the best thing is they never want to talk about
[00:31:13] what you did then when I talk about what it meant to them yes and already you can see the idea has
[00:31:19] evolved in their mind they've taken it on in another way they've moved it forward they've adopted
[00:31:23] it they've interpreted it in some way and it was really just great to be at that conference and
[00:31:29] to hear from people who are like you know had taken the idea on and I was in the audience as you
[00:31:36] were talking to Laurie on stage and I was looking around the room just to see you know how is any of
[00:31:43] this going down with people and you could just you could just see the wheels turning in their head
[00:31:49] as they were you know taking a minute to be like huh who is my wise unknown and it was just
[00:31:56] enjoy it was the joy to see that yeah two of my biggest thrills thinking about like the reception
[00:32:02] of this is that effective like if we have spurred people to tell other people in their lives how wise
[00:32:09] they think they are and just like acknowledge people in a more deliberate intentional way that's
[00:32:14] so beautiful the other thing is I've had many people come up to me and say or call me early voice
[00:32:20] texts or whatever saying that they recognize themselves in some of the wise unknown guests
[00:32:27] I'm thinking about one friend in particular who is just like so brilliant and she always walks around
[00:32:33] with this sense that she hasn't fully realized her own potential and that like creatively she's
[00:32:40] kind of stifled and just like can't figure out how to make it happen and and she said oh my god
[00:32:45] like I'm Dwayne Kennedy in this way that was actually very wonderful for her like put her at ease
[00:32:51] and that made me so happy because I thought wow like if listeners can hear in the wise unknown
[00:32:56] folks things in themselves and feel better about who they are and just like more at ease
[00:33:02] you know whether they're introverts like Laurie Barra or whether they're like multi-cultural
[00:33:07] like remixers like Adalia the woman that Rosario Dawson introduced us to it's like
[00:33:13] I hope that people who have not always been in the spotlight who might be listeners
[00:33:19] hear themselves through some of the guests it seems like that's the case based on some of the stuff
[00:33:24] I've heard back yeah I think I'm definitely a Dwayne
[00:33:30] no I'm Dwayne Kennedy why do you say that?
[00:33:36] I think it's how he views his work right and the work is greater than the self in that sense I think
[00:33:44] and I feel the same way I feel the same way about my work and and that's why I suck it self-promotion
[00:33:49] I suck at all of that other stuff and I don't even care about any of it but you know if you want
[00:33:55] to have a conversation with me about the work then I'm there you know I'm all about that I think so
[00:34:00] I really that resonated with me a lot okay I wanted to talk about one of the reasons I even thought
[00:34:10] about this podcast like one of the reasons I'd sort of been carrying around inside of my head was
[00:34:14] a couple of different people in my life who I have experienced as just profoundly wise but like
[00:34:20] sneak attack wise and one of them is my friend Pete who I met in my like early 20s he was best
[00:34:28] childhood friends with one of my best college friends and Pete grew up in Staten Island I think
[00:34:34] he was born in Brooklyn but grew up in Staten Island and is like the guy at the party that
[00:34:41] is always like cracking everybody up and very easy to laugh at other people's jokes and just
[00:34:47] like so pleasant and lovely to be around has this very thick Staten Island accent so you could
[00:34:52] quickly kind of make some assumptions about him if you have like Staten Island bias which he would
[00:34:58] push back against but we all know it exists and yet like the other day when I was in New York
[00:35:04] I met up at a bar with him and some other friends and he was the first one there I got there and
[00:35:08] he was like reading this very esoteric philosophy book by himself and I'm like Pete what are you
[00:35:15] reading you know like I was supposed to be the nerd and you're like at the bar with this philosophy
[00:35:20] book he's like a banker you know he's like all these things the Staten Island banker like reading
[00:35:25] this book about arrows so anyway I've always loved Pete and been so touched by his sneak attack
[00:35:31] wisdom and so I did ask him to answer some questions about wisdom for us and so we're just going
[00:35:38] to play a little of his voice because I feel like in some ways he's a little bit of a patron saint
[00:35:42] from me of this podcast which he had no idea about like he was like what you know come on court
[00:35:48] you'll hear he's like you just deeply humble and like very uncomfortable with this role
[00:35:55] and hated recording these love it let's play okay okay do you think you yourself as wise why or why not
[00:36:07] yeah without sounding too conceited sometimes I do all right I usually kind of do not always not
[00:36:14] when I was younger but I grew up at a house where it was a lot of affection on one side and
[00:36:21] and a lot of discipline on the other side so I got good at reading people's emotions I've
[00:36:27] always been a good listener I enjoy listening to people I have a saying joy talking if you've hung
[00:36:33] out with me I don't shut up but I feel like I do that when the moment calls for it or when people
[00:36:40] need to laugh I'm just like well I'm gonna say I'm ton of dumb shit until you're laughing but I
[00:36:47] rather not I'd rather sit there and listen I had this dream when I was a kid not that young probably
[00:36:53] in I don't know high school where this is so stupid I never remember my dreams that's why it sticks
[00:37:01] out I was upstate and I was sleeping and I woke up in the middle of the night and I was like
[00:37:07] sweating it was two in the morning everybody else in the house was sleeping but I was walking
[00:37:13] down a rainy street it looks like the album cover from Marvin Gaye what's going on and it was me
[00:37:19] in Marvin literally and he's dressed the same way and he's so very serious and we're walking in the
[00:37:24] rain down whatever block I imagine that album cover was taken on and he's telling me all this
[00:37:30] stuff about life which I wish I remembered it all because it's so weird but basically at the end he
[00:37:36] sends be humble the humility is the key and I woke up in a panic and I was up all day and people
[00:37:47] the next day were like what is wrong with you and I was like I had since crazy dream last night
[00:37:52] and I always think about it like I have to stay humble and it's to my detriment sometimes I feel
[00:37:59] like it kept me from doing things but it's also kept me in check that it's like don't get too
[00:38:04] full yourself and try and listen and try and you know take what the world is giving you feeling
[00:38:11] with depression especially pandemic after that where I was just like wow I hate the way my brain
[00:38:18] is working I feel depressed I'm feeling however and that is not how I want to live my life
[00:38:25] and I started to realize that I had judged people like I always did it I did it when I was younger
[00:38:33] because to make friends you had to be funny you know I'm not the biggest toughest guy
[00:38:38] standing out and growing up to a lot of bullies and I'd see it in school so I would make friends
[00:38:43] with people by being able to make fun of people and then when you do that you become really
[00:38:48] critical of yourself I think like when people are like oh I'm so much self criticism I hate the
[00:38:53] voice in my head I was the same way and I'm still on everybody as but I am much more
[00:38:59] wise of today because I realized that the key to stop that is not only not judging yourself
[00:39:05] because that's obvious but it's not easy but I think the less that we judge other people
[00:39:11] the less you judge yourself because you're doing it to yourself because you do it to others
[00:39:16] you're holding yourself you're sitting thinking like what would that person judge about me
[00:39:19] because you're judging them it's not easy I mean everyone's still nice to do it but
[00:39:25] I think I've become a lot wise there when I realized that everybody's got the own thing
[00:39:29] yeah I think I'm wise for that. The other thing I wanted to bring up is that Wendy McNaughton who
[00:39:36] we mentioned created the art for this podcast also had me as a visiting artist on her sub-stack
[00:39:43] which is called Draw Together and then there's this part called grownup table where she gives people
[00:39:48] art assignments each week and so we designed this art assignment around the wise unknown we ask
[00:39:53] people to pick some wise unknown person in their life draw them tell the person that they thought
[00:39:59] of in this way and then interview them ask them a few questions Wendy's art which is often
[00:40:03] described as drawn journalism often includes like a portrait of someone a pencil drawing or maybe
[00:40:10] sometimes watercolor drawing and then some quotes from the person kind of around that image of
[00:40:15] them and so we ask people to create those and people created the most beautiful stunning totally
[00:40:23] diverse images and quotes and so we're hoping that you will look those up and just bask in how
[00:40:33] beautiful they are and make one of your own if it inspires you and then you should check out
[00:40:37] Wendy McNaughton's sub-stack which is a delight anyway and totally we're subscribing to especially
[00:40:44] if you have a have an artistic inclination and lastly we heard from you all are amazing listeners
[00:40:51] about your wise unknowns thank you so much for sending us your voice memos hi Courtney I love this
[00:40:59] week's gut assignment I decided to feature my cousin Mona who is more of a big sister to me than
[00:41:05] a cousin she is always the person I can lean on for any sort of advice and wisdom she has children
[00:41:14] who are just a little bit older than mine so that's very convenient as well she is personally going
[00:41:20] through a pretty tough time in her life right now she recently lost one of her biggest mentors
[00:41:27] and closest friends Adi Barkin who recently passed away of ALS and as a political activist and a
[00:41:35] human rights activist she's putting in a lot of long-hard hours fighting for the rights of the
[00:41:41] people in Palestine so she's kind of going through the ring right now so it's nice to check in with
[00:41:47] her and ask her a few questions and just let her know that I'm thinking about her and that she
[00:41:54] has made a big impact in my life so thank you so much for the opportunity bye
[00:42:02] hi Courtney my name is Ann I'm a fellow mom raising kids around the same age as yours and I
[00:42:08] appreciated the press feeding story as an intro to how you and Wendy met but as a mom I'm always
[00:42:16] looking for wisdom and I want to thank you for the prompt that made me interview and record my
[00:42:22] parents in a very approachable way for both me and for them your three questions really got to
[00:42:28] the root of who they are and who I am because of them we talked about what they learned from their
[00:42:35] own parents and how that's been passed down through the generations it helped uncover things that
[00:42:42] I didn't know and reinforce and really memorialize some things that I did and I enjoyed listening to
[00:42:49] your podcast as I painted their portraits so thank you so much for the work that you're doing
[00:42:55] and keep it up thanks bye so listen this season is over we have talked to these seven incredible people
[00:43:06] stay tuned because we are going to create a poster with my name Ignatine of the seven lessons
[00:43:11] of these incredible people which you can order so you know follow me on social media I'm at
[00:43:17] court writes at both Instagram and Twitter on LinkedIn on Facebook so find me and follow me subscribe
[00:43:23] to my sub-stack and you will get the announcement about when the poster is ready to be distributed
[00:43:29] so excited about that but also we want to hear from you record a little voice memo and send it to us
[00:43:35] at the wise unknown seven at gmail.com that's the wise unknown seven at gmail.com and tell us what would
[00:43:44] you like to see out of a second season of this podcast who do you want to hear us talk to
[00:43:48] we have some some folks that we really wanted to try to get including an athlete we thought it would
[00:43:54] be really fun to get like a famous athlete or coach so that was one of our unrealized dreams but what
[00:43:59] is this spark for you who do you want to hear us interview what did you love about it what did you
[00:44:03] hate about it you can email us or the other thing you can do is obviously post on social media just tag
[00:44:10] me at court writes and use hashtag wise unknown and again I want to say we're so grateful
[00:44:17] to Kyle Reese and the Reese Family Foundation and to Einhorn Collaborative and if you were inspired
[00:44:23] by this season and you want to see another season we will have to get more funding we haven't
[00:44:28] addressed that yet but if you are someone who has funding for these kinds of projects reach out to us
[00:44:34] we would welcome more collaborators as long as they can stomach the fact that we are deeply in
[00:44:39] improvisation I know you're going to be mad at me Golda forget cheesy with you and thanking you
[00:44:48] but you know I'm gonna do it I mean this would not exist without you before you do it before you
[00:44:55] do it I want to say thank you to you actually because I'm really I'm really grateful actually that we
[00:45:02] met we decided on each other at some point so thank you for deciding on me Courtney thank you
[00:45:08] for deciding on me Golda I feel like you are like my podcast fairy godmother but like I wanted to
[00:45:14] exist but also like just really our friendship you know that's anyone who has creative collaborations
[00:45:21] knows this like the best stuff comes out of like actual genuine friendship and I think I've just felt
[00:45:28] deeply mentored by you but also just like I feel like I can completely be myself with you
[00:45:34] and show up in the way I need to show up and you also inspire excellence in me like I want to be
[00:45:39] excellent for you and with you which is such a cool combination of feeling like totally at ease
[00:45:44] in my own skin but also wanting to make something really fucking amazing which is very dwayne Kennedy
[00:45:51] that I'm saying that right right I think so and you know and the same your words actually have
[00:45:58] such an impact on me and you do have such a mastery over them in deep all of that so thank you
[00:46:04] long way this collaboration in the team yes please please please all right thank you listeners we're
[00:46:11] so grateful to you thank you Golda thank you to our funders and our collaborators that we mentioned
[00:46:17] Jessica and Kumar and Wendy Eric thank you so much Eric see you next time bye
[00:46:26] the wise unknown was made possible by the Reese Foundation where Kyle Reese is a force for good
[00:46:32] an ironhorn collaborative which just gets wisdom way better than almost any foundation we know
[00:46:39] the show was produced by the amazing gold Arthur our associate producer is Jessica Martinez Day
[00:46:45] Haas and our sound engineer is Eric Gomez our music is by public school teacher and musician
[00:46:51] Kumar Butler and our art is by the indomitable Wendy McNodden
[00:47:00] from PRX