Larger-than-life bestselling novelist Isabel introduces Courtney to a remarkably understated photographer and very patient daughter-in-law, Lori.
[00:00:00] I'm Courtney Martin and this is The Wise Unknown.
[00:00:10] Now bring to mind the most grounded person you know.
[00:00:14] Who in your life keeps the main thing the main thing?
[00:00:17] Whose advice do you find actually useful?
[00:00:20] Chances are if you're anything like me, that person isn't making a living as a quote-unquote wisdom figure.
[00:00:26] They're, you know, your quirky neighbor, your beloved auntie, your favorite elementary school teacher.
[00:00:33] Hi Miss Fanning.
[00:00:35] They don't have a million followers on Instagram.
[00:00:38] We live in a world that increasingly puts particular people up on a pedestal.
[00:00:42] But I wanted to talk to people with two feet firmly on the ground,
[00:00:45] people that the folks in the pedestal actually consider the real sources.
[00:00:49] I wanted to meet the wise unknown.
[00:00:54] So I asked seven famous people to introduce me to the wisest person they know,
[00:00:58] the people have probably never heard of.
[00:01:00] And then I kicked the famous person off the line and talked to the source.
[00:01:05] Today we have a very special treat.
[00:01:08] This is our only live episode in this season.
[00:01:11] And in it best-selling novelist Isabel Allende, you know,
[00:01:16] House of the Spirits, Paula, all these incredible best-selling books,
[00:01:20] introduces me to the woman she ensnared to be her daughter-in-law.
[00:01:25] Constant collaborator and deeply grounded companion.
[00:01:29] Lori Bara has spent many, many years standing backstage
[00:01:32] and watching Isabel bask in the shine of the spotlight.
[00:01:35] So you can imagine how uncomfortable this experience was for her.
[00:01:39] But she did it.
[00:01:40] And thank goodness she did because her wisdom on death, art,
[00:01:44] and empathy is so perfect for our troubled times.
[00:01:48] Huge thanks to the Omega Institute, especially Elizabeth Lesser,
[00:01:52] who cooked this whole magical thing up with me.
[00:01:55] And without further ado,
[00:01:57] Meet writer Isabel Allende and photographer, philanthropist,
[00:02:01] and brave introvert Lori Bara.
[00:02:04] When I was a little girl,
[00:02:08] I realized that our religion was basically reading.
[00:02:12] My mom loved nothing more on earth than curling up with a good novel.
[00:02:17] And not infrequently, the novel in her hands was one written
[00:02:21] by the woman we are about to speak with.
[00:02:23] So she's a bit of a deity to me.
[00:02:26] Maybe to you too.
[00:02:28] Ever heard of House of the Spirits?
[00:02:32] Paula, Eva Luna.
[00:02:35] Please welcome to the screen
[00:02:38] Goddess of magical realism, dog lover,
[00:02:42] rabble rouser, novelist with a stand-up comedian level sense of humor,
[00:02:46] matriarch of her sprawling Chilean American family,
[00:02:49] Isabel Allende.
[00:02:52] Hello, everybody.
[00:02:58] Thank you. Thank you.
[00:03:00] Woo-hoo-hoo-hoo!
[00:03:02] You've got... I don't think you can see them.
[00:03:04] You can only see me, but you have this sprawling room of beautiful people
[00:03:08] who are so excited that you're with us, Isabel.
[00:03:10] Thank you so much for doing this.
[00:03:12] Thank you for being here and for allowing me to talk about
[00:03:15] the wise person in my life.
[00:03:17] Yeah. So who are you introducing us to today?
[00:03:20] Tell us a little bit about this person.
[00:03:22] I'm introducing you to a Brooklyn woman called Lori Barrow.
[00:03:28] She happens to be my daughter-in-law,
[00:03:31] which is not by her choice actually.
[00:03:34] This was an arranged marriage.
[00:03:36] Years ago, my son was divorced with three babies,
[00:03:43] a toddler and two babies in diapers, the three of them.
[00:03:47] And he was along with all these kids naturally.
[00:03:51] I was looking for a bride, someone that would fill the role.
[00:03:58] When I was signing books, I would look in the line to see
[00:04:03] which one would fit my son's taste.
[00:04:07] And I would ask for the phone number and it never quite worked.
[00:04:10] It was just a lot of work and wasted time.
[00:04:13] But eventually I met Lori Barrow.
[00:04:16] And I thought this is the perfect woman, but I needed to test her.
[00:04:20] So I took her in a trip to the Amazon thinking,
[00:04:24] well, the most stressful thing would be the Amazon.
[00:04:28] And she sort of survived barely the Amazon trip.
[00:04:32] And I thought, well, if she survived that,
[00:04:34] she can survive the three children.
[00:04:36] But since then, many, many years ago,
[00:04:39] she has been my best friend, my companion,
[00:04:44] my mentor in many, many ways.
[00:04:49] And there are many reasons for this.
[00:04:52] First of all, I should mention that she runs my foundation.
[00:04:56] She's been doing that for more than 20 years.
[00:04:59] And the foundation's mission is to invest in the power of women and girls.
[00:05:06] And it's a work of the heart.
[00:05:09] It's a lot of stress, a lot of traveling,
[00:05:13] a lot of listening to really, really hard stories.
[00:05:18] And being in touch with the most vulnerable,
[00:05:22] with those people that are most at risk.
[00:05:28] It requires enormous empathy and compassion.
[00:05:34] And also you have to be really smart
[00:05:37] and keep on this thing going.
[00:05:41] You need to administrate the whole thing.
[00:05:43] So you have to have more than just a big heart.
[00:05:47] You have to have a very clear mind.
[00:05:50] I think that the hardest thing for Lori
[00:05:53] is to separate herself from the grantees
[00:05:57] and really keep her privacy and establish some distance
[00:06:01] so she can protect herself.
[00:06:03] For her, that's very difficult.
[00:06:05] But when I say that I go to her for guidance,
[00:06:09] it's because those qualities of empathy and compassion
[00:06:14] that she has, she invests them in service,
[00:06:22] in service to others.
[00:06:24] But not only the people from the foundation,
[00:06:29] it's the family, especially the family.
[00:06:33] And me, I mean, it's very hard to have me for a mother-in-law.
[00:06:37] Anybody can tell you that.
[00:06:39] And it's really, really hard.
[00:06:42] Frankly, I don't know how she would sum with me.
[00:06:46] But let's say that I go to her and I say,
[00:06:50] we are talking about the grantees, the foundation,
[00:06:53] whatever, and I get desperate.
[00:06:55] And I say, Lori, this is a drop of water
[00:07:00] in a desert of need and suffering.
[00:07:05] What does it mean?
[00:07:06] It doesn't mean anything.
[00:07:08] And Lori always reminds me that it's not about numbers.
[00:07:14] This is not an abstract endeavor.
[00:07:18] It's one life at a time, one story at a time,
[00:07:22] one person at a time.
[00:07:24] And if we can make a difference for that person,
[00:07:28] for that life, for that story,
[00:07:30] then we have accomplished something.
[00:07:33] So she has sort of protected me
[00:07:38] from the terrible sin of indifference.
[00:07:42] Because we tend to protect ourselves from the world
[00:07:48] by saying there's nothing I can do.
[00:07:50] She reminds me that, yes, we always can do something.
[00:07:54] That generosity of her,
[00:07:58] which is a beautiful extension of my daughter, Paulia.
[00:08:05] The foundation was created to honor my daughter.
[00:08:09] And the match of the foundation is what is the most generous thing
[00:08:14] that you can do in this case.
[00:08:16] And that's what she does, what is the most generous thing.
[00:08:19] So that's why I go for her, for wise advice.
[00:08:24] That's in the area of the foundation.
[00:08:27] But then there's also the personal stuff.
[00:08:32] Lori is selfless, like my son actually.
[00:08:37] And both lack vanity.
[00:08:40] They have absolutely no vanity.
[00:08:42] Plus she's tall and thin, the damn woman.
[00:08:45] And so when something personal in me, I go to her
[00:08:51] because I know that she will give me
[00:08:54] the word I need to see what is essential
[00:08:59] and not get distracted in the vanity,
[00:09:04] in the self.
[00:09:11] And I tend to do that a lot.
[00:09:13] I'm a very vain person.
[00:09:15] I get up in the morning and first thing
[00:09:17] I put on full makeup like a geisha,
[00:09:19] because I can't bare my naked face.
[00:09:22] And I'm a feminist.
[00:09:24] So Lori keeps reminding me that I'm a feminist.
[00:09:27] And reminding me that at 81, you should have wrinkles.
[00:09:31] Because if you don't, you will look like Schwarzenegger's butt
[00:09:35] or something like that.
[00:09:38] So that's why I really love this woman.
[00:09:42] She also adores my son.
[00:09:45] So this arranged marriage has worked beautifully.
[00:09:50] She adores my son and raised those three kids.
[00:09:53] I don't know how.
[00:09:55] She's my best friend.
[00:09:57] So that's why.
[00:10:07] Well, that's it, Isabel.
[00:10:08] We're kicking you off now.
[00:10:10] You're taking me off so fast.
[00:10:12] I want to be on stage.
[00:10:15] You're out of here.
[00:10:17] Look, Courtney, I need to be the center of attention
[00:10:20] all the time.
[00:10:23] Well, give a big hug to Lori on my behalf
[00:10:27] and tell her not to neglect her husband
[00:10:30] and mother-in-law.
[00:10:32] OK?
[00:10:33] Thank you for doing this, Isabel.
[00:10:35] We love you.
[00:10:36] Thank you so much.
[00:10:38] Thank you.
[00:10:39] Now with further ado, I bring the very reluctant to this stage,
[00:10:47] Lori Farah.
[00:10:52] My goodness.
[00:10:58] So part of the magic of this podcast is getting people
[00:11:01] to let me interview them who have zero interest in being
[00:11:05] interviewed.
[00:11:06] And Lori is one of those people.
[00:11:08] When she found out she was, was Isabel's wise unknown,
[00:11:11] she said, no, I could give you a list of 10 other people
[00:11:14] that you should interview, which is always
[00:11:16] a really good sign for me.
[00:11:17] I love when someone says that.
[00:11:19] So Lori comes to us reluctantly but faithfully doing this
[00:11:24] with us.
[00:11:25] And I just want us all to hold her with that feeling.
[00:11:28] It's not easy to be in a big room of people
[00:11:30] when you're not used to being on the stage.
[00:11:32] So thank you for doing this with me, Lori.
[00:11:35] And I know you want to start by invoking a wise person
[00:11:39] from your life.
[00:11:40] Can you tell us about her?
[00:11:42] So I'm a little bit nervous.
[00:11:44] That was the imposter syndrome is sort of rising.
[00:11:48] That was a very sweet introduction, very kind.
[00:11:51] She should write books.
[00:11:52] She's a good writer.
[00:11:54] She's got a future.
[00:11:56] She's got a future.
[00:11:58] But I thought it would be in the spirit of also the
[00:12:01] conference to dedicate this time here,
[00:12:05] this scary time here to the wisest,
[00:12:09] strongest person I know.
[00:12:11] And that's my mom.
[00:12:13] And today's the anniversary of her passing seven years ago.
[00:12:19] And she truly was the strongest wise person I knew not only
[00:12:28] in her living and her life, but also in her death.
[00:12:33] And I just hope I can go through that part of my life as
[00:12:38] gracefully as she did.
[00:12:40] Will you tell us a little bit about that?
[00:12:43] Because I know you accompanied her through the dying process.
[00:12:46] What was that like?
[00:12:48] What was the wisdom that you pulled from that experience?
[00:12:51] Okay, I'll try.
[00:12:52] Where's the tissues?
[00:12:54] So my mom till the last day,
[00:12:59] she had sort of 11 days of dying.
[00:13:03] She had a stroke at home.
[00:13:05] She lived alone for the last 10 years.
[00:13:07] My dad had died earlier.
[00:13:09] She did everything like she cleaned her house,
[00:13:12] she shopped, she cooked.
[00:13:14] She had two flights of stairs to go up every day.
[00:13:16] And she was a force.
[00:13:18] And if I would call and say, Mom,
[00:13:20] can I just hire a cleaning person?
[00:13:22] She goes, what, you think I can't clean well enough?
[00:13:25] You know, and so we'd have these fights.
[00:13:27] And so I had to go to the hospital.
[00:13:29] I had to go to the hospital.
[00:13:31] I had just given to her.
[00:13:33] And so she was powerful and strong.
[00:13:35] And when she went into the hospital,
[00:13:38] the first thing she was still coherent,
[00:13:40] she said to me, you're not going to let me stay here, right?
[00:13:43] And I said, no, of course I'm not.
[00:13:45] She said, I want to go home if I have to die.
[00:13:48] So it's not easy to take someone home from the hospital,
[00:13:51] as you would think.
[00:13:53] And so then I ended up going and getting my doctorate.
[00:13:56] And so I went to the hospital.
[00:13:58] I was very close to my brothers and my sister and I were all
[00:14:01] very, very close.
[00:14:03] And finally,
[00:14:04] Doctor said, how are you sure?
[00:14:06] And I said, well, come into the room with me.
[00:14:08] And this was probably five days into it.
[00:14:11] And she was hooked up to a bunch of things that we tried to
[00:14:14] resist.
[00:14:15] And she could just talk every once in awhile.
[00:14:18] And I said, mom, you know,
[00:14:21] be in this wonderful rehabilitation home across the street.
[00:14:26] I'll move back home, I'll be here with you.
[00:14:29] They'll give you food, it won't be as good as yours.
[00:14:31] But, and we talked for a long time
[00:14:34] and I said, because if you leave here,
[00:14:37] they're gonna take away all the tubes
[00:14:38] and you're not gonna be able to eat or drink
[00:14:40] and you're slowly going to die at home.
[00:14:44] And she closed her eyes and she opened them
[00:14:47] and she looked at me, she said, take me home now.
[00:14:50] And we went home and there was never a moment
[00:14:54] that I sensed fear, anxiety.
[00:15:00] She was still concerned about everybody in the room
[00:15:04] and she loved Nico so much
[00:15:06] and everyone's while she'd call me over to the bed
[00:15:09] and she'd say, did Nico get something to eat?
[00:15:11] And I'd say, yeah mom, he's eating, what's he eating?
[00:15:15] Did he have enough to eat?
[00:15:16] Like, and this would take 10 minutes
[00:15:17] to get this one sentence out.
[00:15:19] And till the last day, like I think I felt
[00:15:22] like the last 10 years of her life that we had switched roles
[00:15:26] and I was taking care of her, but really I never was.
[00:15:30] She was taking care of me and my siblings
[00:15:32] and my nieces and nephews until the very last second
[00:15:37] and did it so peacefully and so gracefully.
[00:15:44] Okay, we're gonna pause here for a quick break
[00:15:47] back in a minute.
[00:15:54] We wanna hear from you, the wise unknown listeners.
[00:15:58] What's your key takeaway from this week's episode?
[00:16:01] You know, the thing that you'll share with your partner
[00:16:03] as you're falling asleep tonight
[00:16:05] or maybe right on a sticky note
[00:16:06] and then promptly lose somewhere
[00:16:08] in the growing chaos on your desk.
[00:16:09] Is that just me?
[00:16:11] Anyway, record a little voice memo
[00:16:13] and send it to us at thewiseunknown7 at gmail.com.
[00:16:20] Tell us your name and where you're from
[00:16:21] and what you think the lesson of this episode is.
[00:16:25] We are gonna talk through all the nominations
[00:16:28] from our awesome audience in the eighth and final episode.
[00:16:31] We may even use your voice on there
[00:16:33] and even better, we're gonna pick seven
[00:16:35] of the most resonant lessons and make a poster
[00:16:37] with collaborator artist Wendy McNaughton.
[00:16:40] Thanks for listening and learning alongside us.
[00:16:43] You're so awesome.
[00:16:49] I'm Shankar Vedantan, host of a podcast
[00:16:52] called My Unsung Hero.
[00:16:54] It's a show about acts of kindness
[00:16:57] that changed someone's life.
[00:16:59] She came straight up to me,
[00:17:00] she looked me in the eyes and she smiled.
[00:17:03] And all this, didn't I look up
[00:17:04] and this hand slides two warm chocolate chip cookies
[00:17:09] across the desk.
[00:17:12] My unsung hero.
[00:17:14] Listen and renew your faith in humanity.
[00:17:21] You have such a beautiful caring way about you,
[00:17:25] the way you relate from the moment I met you,
[00:17:29] I felt that and I know that's part of what Isabel tried to say.
[00:17:33] He got tested you in the Amazon and did this arranged marriage.
[00:17:36] So it's beautiful to hear that story
[00:17:39] of this legacy of care that clearly comes
[00:17:42] from your mother, that's so beautiful.
[00:17:45] I wanted to ask you about, it's so funny,
[00:17:47] Isabel said vanity, but I was thinking a little bit
[00:17:51] about ambition which I think is related,
[00:17:54] vanity and ambition are close cousins, right?
[00:17:57] And one of the things I've learned
[00:17:58] having these conversations with people
[00:18:00] is that a lot of the people who are not well known
[00:18:03] but are very wise as you are, whether you accept this or not,
[00:18:08] are not particularly ambitious
[00:18:10] or at least not ambitious in sort of the traditional way
[00:18:12] we all understand ambition.
[00:18:14] So I wondered if you'd talk a little bit about that.
[00:18:16] Are you ambitious and what's your relationship to that word?
[00:18:22] This is just my definition of it,
[00:18:24] but ambition feels like a hollow word to me,
[00:18:27] sort of one directional and I'm gonna do whatever it takes
[00:18:31] to get from this point to that point,
[00:18:33] whatever it costs at all costs.
[00:18:36] And I know that's not how everybody views ambition
[00:18:38] but I feel like it's one of those words
[00:18:40] that needs a companion like heart and soul.
[00:18:46] And then if you put those three together,
[00:18:47] ambition, heart and soul, then you have purpose.
[00:18:51] And I think I have purpose, but not so much ambition.
[00:18:56] Like I've been photographing my whole life
[00:18:58] and I've been offered shows and books and things like that.
[00:19:03] And I've never understood why I would need to do that.
[00:19:06] Like it's never about the final thing for me,
[00:19:09] it's about the relationships and connection.
[00:19:12] I think that's what my life
[00:19:13] is about relationship and connection.
[00:19:16] And the end product is just like I did yogurt tea
[00:19:21] and I did a lot of training for four years.
[00:19:22] I never wanted to be a teacher.
[00:19:24] I just wanted to deepen my practice
[00:19:26] and I used to feel sometimes like,
[00:19:29] gosh, I should be more ambitious.
[00:19:31] I should have a goal, but really I just wanna be with people.
[00:19:36] I just wanna go home at night
[00:19:38] and sit quietly with my husband
[00:19:39] and wanna be out in the forest
[00:19:43] and I really like quiet.
[00:19:46] I can't do a lot of stimulation.
[00:19:51] And do you think that that's partly
[00:19:52] because of the empathy that Isabel was talking about?
[00:19:55] Is that why you need the quiet
[00:19:57] is cause you're such a porous caring person
[00:20:00] that you need those moments of quiet to restore?
[00:20:03] That's a good question.
[00:20:06] I think so because I'm very aware at all times
[00:20:11] of Elizabeth and I were talking about this of,
[00:20:14] like is everyone in the room okay?
[00:20:16] Is everyone comfortable?
[00:20:17] Like we'll plan a dinner party
[00:20:18] and I will spend like cooking's easy, right?
[00:20:21] But then I'll spend an hour figuring out
[00:20:24] who's gonna sit next to who
[00:20:26] and are they gonna have something to talk about
[00:20:28] and are they gonna feel invigorated by that?
[00:20:31] Will they be able to?
[00:20:32] It's like I'm constantly trying to fix and connect.
[00:20:38] And this is sort of silly story
[00:20:40] but I just came back from Japan visiting my niece
[00:20:43] and we were at the airport
[00:20:44] and this young, very healthy Marine was in front of us
[00:20:48] and he puts his bag onto the thing to be weighed
[00:20:51] and the flight attendant said,
[00:20:54] you need to take the strap off
[00:20:55] because it's gonna get caught in the thing.
[00:20:57] So there he is, he's like this big in front of us
[00:21:01] and I was just about to reach down and say,
[00:21:05] you know, you have an outside pocket on your bag.
[00:21:06] You can allow me to do that for you.
[00:21:08] I can put it inside and I could feel my husband
[00:21:10] and he grabs my shoulder and he goes,
[00:21:12] stop, think and let go.
[00:21:16] And that's sort of like what happens on a daily basis.
[00:21:22] I love that.
[00:21:23] And I can't, it's so hard to, you know.
[00:21:26] Stop, think and let go.
[00:21:28] The let go part is the really hard part.
[00:21:30] Let go is the really hard part.
[00:21:32] Yeah.
[00:21:32] Let go, that's beautiful, I love that.
[00:21:35] So let's go into, you mentioned that you're a photographer
[00:21:37] and Lori's work is so beautiful
[00:21:41] and you can find it online.
[00:21:43] I will tell you it is online, Google art.
[00:21:46] It's very beautiful.
[00:21:48] Tell us about your love of photography
[00:21:51] and especially about the moment when you met your,
[00:21:54] I know you've had many teachers and mentors in photography
[00:21:57] but your main mentor, I wanna hear that story.
[00:21:59] Okay, I've always loved photography.
[00:22:01] I started when I was in high school
[00:22:04] and we did not, my high school teacher
[00:22:07] was one of my wise unknown people as well.
[00:22:09] She turned 101 this year
[00:22:11] and I'm still in touch with her.
[00:22:12] She's amazing.
[00:22:14] But so I loved it, I went to Parsons
[00:22:16] and I majored in design and photography
[00:22:19] and when I finished I thought,
[00:22:21] never gonna do photography as a job.
[00:22:23] It's so personal, it's so vulnerable.
[00:22:26] It's really for me, it's like going inside
[00:22:30] rather than outside.
[00:22:31] Like there's a product that comes of it
[00:22:32] but it's really inner searching.
[00:22:35] And so, Mary Ellen.
[00:22:38] So I turned, I was 50 at the time
[00:22:42] and I was going through a crazy time in my life.
[00:22:46] I have three kids and at the time they were 15,
[00:22:50] 16 and a half and 18.
[00:22:52] And the youngest one was like,
[00:22:54] it was like watching the extra assist.
[00:22:56] I mean, she just, like her head was constantly spinning
[00:22:59] around and she was, I'll choose that unsafe thing
[00:23:01] and I'll choose that dangerous thing.
[00:23:02] And so Niko and I for a year and a half
[00:23:07] we thought she's either gonna kill us
[00:23:09] or we're gonna kill her.
[00:23:11] I mean, she was so hard and we couldn't reason with her.
[00:23:14] And so for a year and a half
[00:23:16] because we literally would sit outside her door some nights
[00:23:18] because she escaped through the set.
[00:23:20] I mean, she was wild.
[00:23:21] She's now a beautiful, she doesn't even remember this.
[00:23:24] I don't know where it went but anyway,
[00:23:28] we couldn't go away together for a year and a half
[00:23:31] because we were watching, we're so hyper vigilant
[00:23:34] and so I decided, you know what?
[00:23:36] I need a break.
[00:23:37] I'm gonna go to a hawk with my friends
[00:23:38] and just chill out.
[00:23:40] So I'm in a restaurant with them, my two best friends
[00:23:43] Amanda and Vivian and we're sitting there
[00:23:45] and suddenly I looked this way and I was like,
[00:23:47] oh my God, that's Mary on Mark.
[00:23:49] And I just like, I was like, you know,
[00:23:53] and I don't get sorry.
[00:23:54] First of all, I don't usually recognize people
[00:23:56] but I just don't get that way.
[00:23:58] And so they were like, go say hi.
[00:24:02] And I'm like, oh no way
[00:24:03] because I know what's like to be famous
[00:24:06] and have people come up to you.
[00:24:07] It happens with Isabel all the time.
[00:24:08] She's very gracious.
[00:24:09] But it is interruptive.
[00:24:11] And so they convinced me to go
[00:24:14] and my friend Amanda videoed the whole thing.
[00:24:18] And so I'm walking towards the table
[00:24:20] and I suddenly realized,
[00:24:20] oh she's sitting next to this incredibly famous actor
[00:24:23] who I found out later was in her class.
[00:24:25] And I'm walking to the table
[00:24:27] and she sees me coming
[00:24:28] and he sees me coming
[00:24:29] and he thinks I'm coming to see him.
[00:24:32] So he puts his hood on and his glasses
[00:24:34] and he starts looking like he's eating.
[00:24:36] And I walk up and I say,
[00:24:38] Mary Ellen, you're my hero.
[00:24:40] And I start crying and he's like,
[00:24:43] and it was really funny.
[00:24:46] And so I get, I said,
[00:24:47] I don't mean to interrupt you,
[00:24:48] I'm gonna go back.
[00:24:49] So no, come here, sit down.
[00:24:50] And I was like, really?
[00:24:52] And so she said, who are you
[00:24:53] and what do you do?
[00:24:54] And I said, you have been like
[00:24:58] without being physically in my life
[00:25:01] you have been a mentor to me.
[00:25:02] I love your work.
[00:25:02] I don't know anybody that can take pictures
[00:25:05] the way you do
[00:25:06] of really difficult situations
[00:25:08] and give people back their dignity.
[00:25:10] And she said, oh, you should come to my class.
[00:25:12] And then I think I fainted on the floor or something.
[00:25:15] And she said, no, really?
[00:25:16] You should come.
[00:25:17] And I'm like, yeah, right.
[00:25:18] It's like people say, let's do lunch.
[00:25:19] So she gives me her card
[00:25:20] and I'm like, what the hell?
[00:25:21] I'll just apply.
[00:25:23] Apply, she sends me a note two weeks later
[00:25:26] send your portfolio.
[00:25:28] And then she calls me on the phone.
[00:25:32] I'm like, I thought it was a prank.
[00:25:34] And I'm like, really?
[00:25:35] And she's like, yeah, your work is really beautiful.
[00:25:38] I really love you to come to my class.
[00:25:39] And I'm totally hyperventilating.
[00:25:42] So I'm like, can I call you back?
[00:25:44] I called her back and I was like, I would love to come.
[00:25:48] And that started so many,
[00:25:52] it started a complete love affair again,
[00:25:56] a photography.
[00:25:57] It started a real inquiry into my own life.
[00:26:00] I had become so hyper vigilant with the kids
[00:26:04] that I had lost so much of myself
[00:26:06] and what really brought me joy.
[00:26:08] And I couldn't remember anymore,
[00:26:11] like I was a graphic designer for 30 years.
[00:26:13] And I couldn't remember that feeling of being in the zone.
[00:26:16] I was just in stress all the time in stress.
[00:26:19] And so I went to her class,
[00:26:22] I went back the next year,
[00:26:23] back then I went for seven years
[00:26:25] and she and I became really close friends.
[00:26:27] And I was with her during the last days of her life
[00:26:29] when she was also dying of cancer.
[00:26:32] And it just was the richest experience.
[00:26:37] And I'm so grateful to her.
[00:26:39] I mean, she's not unknown,
[00:26:41] but she is one of the wisest people I know.
[00:26:43] She just, she's beautiful.
[00:26:46] That's such a cool story.
[00:26:48] When you talk about her work
[00:26:50] and you say in really hard circumstances,
[00:26:53] she manages to give people their dignity.
[00:26:55] Yeah.
[00:26:56] How does she do that?
[00:26:58] Like what, and you know,
[00:26:59] that is a form of wisdom that is so beautiful.
[00:27:01] It's a huge form of wisdom.
[00:27:02] I think what she taught me
[00:27:04] and what she does in her work is that she goes back,
[00:27:08] she photographs somebody and then she stays in touch.
[00:27:12] She goes back a week later, a year later.
[00:27:15] Most people, she's photographed,
[00:27:16] she's photographed for 10 or 20 years.
[00:27:19] She develops a relationship and a connection.
[00:27:23] She might not even take photographs the first few times
[00:27:27] because she's really trying to gain their trust.
[00:27:30] And that's what she taught me.
[00:27:31] She taught me to be an invisible photographer.
[00:27:34] So the assignment she gave me,
[00:27:37] she gives everyone an assignment
[00:27:38] and we always go at the Lenten period
[00:27:40] where there are a lot of parades
[00:27:41] and she's like, no, you're not going to the parades.
[00:27:43] She said, you're going to...
[00:27:45] Does she give everyone an individual assignment?
[00:27:47] An individual project
[00:27:48] and they could range anywhere from,
[00:27:49] you're gonna spend... Based on your portfolio?
[00:27:51] You're gonna spend a week at the slaughterhouse
[00:27:52] or you're gonna spend a week doing
[00:27:54] the transvestite parades
[00:27:55] or you're gonna, like it's a very,
[00:27:57] colorful place.
[00:27:58] And she said, here's three places.
[00:28:00] You're gonna go to school for the deaf,
[00:28:02] the Down syndrome school, no four.
[00:28:04] And the school for disabled children
[00:28:07] and the place called...
[00:28:13] Basically, Children of the Moon.
[00:28:14] It's for women who do sex work.
[00:28:16] They have no place to put their kids at night
[00:28:18] and they stay there for the night
[00:28:20] till the morning and get taken to school.
[00:28:21] So I spent the first 10 days
[00:28:24] and she's really like, she is tough.
[00:28:27] Like, if you come back
[00:28:29] and you have not done your work
[00:28:31] and she knows, she's like, it's five o'clock.
[00:28:34] You still have three more hours.
[00:28:35] You can go back out again.
[00:28:36] And she was like, she really believes
[00:28:39] in the discipline of it,
[00:28:42] the joy of it and the connections that you make.
[00:28:45] You seem like someone who's wisdom
[00:28:48] is partly rooted in being profoundly invested
[00:28:52] in the process, but not the product necessarily.
[00:28:57] Which I think is so important.
[00:29:00] But I do wanna ask you about product,
[00:29:02] which is how do you know if a photograph is good?
[00:29:06] Mine or somebody else's?
[00:29:08] Yours.
[00:29:08] Okay.
[00:29:09] Because it's very easy for me to know
[00:29:11] if someone else's photograph is good.
[00:29:13] I...
[00:29:14] Well, tell us both.
[00:29:15] How do you know if someone else is good?
[00:29:17] And that's personal.
[00:29:19] Like for me, a photograph has to be emotive.
[00:29:22] It has to draw me in.
[00:29:24] It has to make me wonder about the story.
[00:29:27] It has to grab my attention.
[00:29:29] And I think that's sort of,
[00:29:33] and of course there's composition and there's light
[00:29:35] and there's all that, but that's sort of secondary.
[00:29:37] The technical part of it is very secondary for me.
[00:29:41] My photographs, I edit the first day I shoot them.
[00:29:45] I edit the next day.
[00:29:47] And then I wait a week and I photo,
[00:29:50] I edit again and I wait a month and I edit again.
[00:29:52] And the edit from day one to the second month
[00:29:55] is completely different because the first day,
[00:29:58] I can't get rid of anything.
[00:29:59] Everything has a story, a heart attachment.
[00:30:03] That was the day America taught me,
[00:30:05] the CM girl was America at the Dylan Johnson School,
[00:30:08] taught me how to do Downward Dog and her,
[00:30:11] I can't let go of that.
[00:30:13] Like I can't let go of the connection.
[00:30:15] By the second week, I can see them as photographs
[00:30:19] and what's meaningful and what's lasting.
[00:30:22] But it takes a long time.
[00:30:25] And I get a lot of critique,
[00:30:26] I'm always asking for feedback from peers of mine.
[00:30:31] Yeah.
[00:30:32] So I love that,
[00:30:34] because there's sort of this process of,
[00:30:36] for someone whose superpower is attachment,
[00:30:39] you need the detachment on some level
[00:30:42] in order to do the creative work.
[00:30:44] I'm sure there are a lot of artists in the room
[00:30:46] who very much relate to this,
[00:30:47] whether it's book writing or visual arts,
[00:30:50] but it's such a common thing.
[00:30:54] And then the feedback, talk a little bit more about that,
[00:30:57] because I think we think we want feedback,
[00:31:00] but most of us are so terrified to get real feedback.
[00:31:06] Oh yeah, I've been in writers groups where people are like,
[00:31:09] let's just talk about writing.
[00:31:11] Let's not actually edit each other's work
[00:31:14] because people have such a hard time
[00:31:17] really putting themselves out there.
[00:31:20] It sounds like you don't have that.
[00:31:22] I love a brutal critique.
[00:31:24] I do, I love, because there's no truth in it.
[00:31:28] It's like you get to hear what other people think,
[00:31:31] you can incorporate some of that work,
[00:31:32] you can let some of it go,
[00:31:33] you don't have to do anything with it.
[00:31:36] But most of the time,
[00:31:37] I think it's critical to figure out
[00:31:39] who you're gonna ask the questions of.
[00:31:41] Just gonna ask someone whose opinion doesn't matter
[00:31:44] to you or his work doesn't resonate with you.
[00:31:47] But if you ask the right people,
[00:31:49] or you ask the people who you'd like to,
[00:31:52] I'd like to take the photographs that she takes.
[00:31:55] Let me ask her what she sees in my work.
[00:31:57] It's incredible.
[00:31:59] I mean, I loved it in art school and I loved it
[00:32:02] as a designer for 30 years
[00:32:04] and we always worked in big bull pens.
[00:32:07] I was in magazines and then branding and then Apple
[00:32:10] and we'd work in big bull pens
[00:32:12] and everyone was always critiquing each other's stuff
[00:32:16] and making it better.
[00:32:17] And it's a collaborative process.
[00:32:20] I don't think painting is
[00:32:21] and I don't think there are other things that aren't,
[00:32:23] but design was and I really treasure a good critique.
[00:32:29] You can look at my work sometime and tell me what you think.
[00:32:32] I love your work.
[00:32:32] I have looked at it.
[00:32:34] It's gorgeous.
[00:32:37] I wanted to ask you about aging and wisdom.
[00:32:43] Is the wisdom that you hold now different
[00:32:46] than the wisdom you held when you were young?
[00:32:48] Are the two related?
[00:32:50] Were they evolved?
[00:32:53] That's a good question.
[00:32:57] I guess I have to define wisdom a little bit.
[00:32:59] Yeah.
[00:33:00] So, when this came up and I was terrified to come here,
[00:33:04] the first thing I did was took out the dictionary
[00:33:06] like what's wisdom?
[00:33:07] I thought it like,
[00:33:08] because I have a definition, right?
[00:33:12] And I kept thinking,
[00:33:13] where's the definition that says wisdom is intelligence?
[00:33:16] Cause then I'm going to call and say,
[00:33:17] I really can't be on this podcast.
[00:33:19] Then they'll believe me.
[00:33:23] But it never said that.
[00:33:24] And Elizabeth sent me a beautiful description of wisdom
[00:33:27] about searching and probing and judgment and instinct.
[00:33:31] And then I guess for wisdom for me
[00:33:35] is more about empathy.
[00:33:38] It's about wisdom is about putting yourself
[00:33:41] in other people's shoes.
[00:33:42] And I've always been fairly good at that.
[00:33:47] But I think with age,
[00:33:50] I'm learning how to do that and have some boundaries
[00:33:54] so I can stay whole at the end of it.
[00:33:57] What is the muscle or the technology
[00:34:02] or like what is the practice that allows you to do that
[00:34:05] to emphasize without losing it?
[00:34:08] I think the self care I do is very simple,
[00:34:13] but it's necessary for me to do it every day.
[00:34:15] Either I have a strong yoga practice,
[00:34:18] I have a pranayama practice, which has been really helpful.
[00:34:20] I didn't think pranayama was important when I was 20
[00:34:23] and I just wanted to put my leg around my head
[00:34:26] and do all these fancy poses.
[00:34:29] But the pranayama has,
[00:34:30] the breathing practice has been very grounding
[00:34:32] and I do it before any kind of stressful situation
[00:34:36] that I'm going into.
[00:34:39] I spend a lot of time,
[00:34:41] we live up behind the hills in Mill Valley in California
[00:34:44] and my house is on a hill
[00:34:46] and I can go right up into the trails
[00:34:48] and I go early in the morning when there's no one out there
[00:34:52] and I just am there.
[00:34:55] Like I'm taking in the beautiful light,
[00:34:58] the things, the colors that are changing, the sounds
[00:35:02] and that's how I take care of myself.
[00:35:05] Like I know people get,
[00:35:09] or at least I know it's from Isabelle,
[00:35:10] like get energized by being in a group
[00:35:13] or like for instance, Isabelle, when we go on tour,
[00:35:15] if there's a hundred people, she's kind of like disappointed.
[00:35:19] But if we go into a theater and there's 2,500 people
[00:35:25] she gets this big and she comes out,
[00:35:28] it could be 11 o'clock at night
[00:35:30] and then she's signing books
[00:35:31] and she could like run a marathon at that point.
[00:35:35] And it's exhausting just to watch from backstage.
[00:35:38] I'm serious.
[00:35:40] Yes, I believe you, yeah.
[00:35:41] So I think I always have to go in and be quiet
[00:35:44] which is not that easy to do in an extroverted world.
[00:35:50] Yeah, well that's part of why
[00:35:52] I wanted to do these conversations
[00:35:54] is that I think we have a bias for extroversion,
[00:35:57] we have a bias for ambition,
[00:35:59] we have a bias for people
[00:36:01] who are really comfortable in a spotlight
[00:36:03] and there's just so much wisdom outside of all of that.
[00:36:06] There's plenty of wisdom inside of those kinds of people
[00:36:10] but there's plenty of wisdom outside of them
[00:36:11] so I'm so grateful to you for doing this.
[00:36:13] Last question, do you think about legacy?
[00:36:16] I mean, you talked about your mother's passing
[00:36:19] and your mentor is passing
[00:36:21] so clearly you're not afraid to think about death.
[00:36:25] I've been thinking about death
[00:36:26] since I was like in second grade.
[00:36:27] I don't know why it's a subject that fascinates me
[00:36:30] and I really wanna have my mother's courage at the end.
[00:36:34] And do you think about legacy?
[00:36:36] I don't but Elizabeth tells the best story about legacy,
[00:36:39] can I steal it?
[00:36:41] Okay, so they were at an,
[00:36:43] Isabel and Elizabeth are very good friends
[00:36:46] and they went to this conference together
[00:36:47] and they were speaking in front of a group of monks
[00:36:52] and a lot of men
[00:36:54] and the question Isabel that was posed to her was,
[00:36:58] you know, what do you think about legacy?
[00:36:59] What's your legacy?
[00:37:01] You can tell she's a little feisty, right?
[00:37:03] And she said, legacy, that's a penis word.
[00:37:07] And she said, that's what men think about.
[00:37:09] We just, we're in the moment.
[00:37:11] We're just doing, you can tell it better than I can
[00:37:13] but that was sort of what she said.
[00:37:15] And what's interesting is we're trying to get her
[00:37:18] at the office to give her archives to somebody
[00:37:21] not because we think she's famous
[00:37:24] and this is important to do
[00:37:25] and she'll make some like none of those considerations
[00:37:29] but I think it's something that students will really,
[00:37:34] you know, she gets something here.
[00:37:36] Like she has over 10,000 letters from her mom
[00:37:39] over the years that they've written back and forth.
[00:37:41] She has so many jewels
[00:37:42] that students would really get something from
[00:37:45] and she is fighting us tooth and nail to do this.
[00:37:49] It's like, when I'm dead, I'm dead.
[00:37:52] Well, yeah, so.
[00:37:53] That's very interesting.
[00:37:55] I wonder what's a more,
[00:37:57] a not penis word, a vulva word for legacy.
[00:38:01] We've got to work on thinking about what that is.
[00:38:03] Yeah, what does that be?
[00:38:05] Anybody have ideas?
[00:38:08] Lineage, we have said lineage a lot today.
[00:38:11] Lineage.
[00:38:12] That's a good one.
[00:38:13] Let's keep marinating on it.
[00:38:15] Can we have a giant round of applause
[00:38:18] for this still left at woman?
[00:38:20] Thank you.
[00:38:20] Thank you.
[00:38:21] Thank you.
[00:38:23] Thank you.
[00:38:24] Oh my God, it's embarrassing.
[00:38:26] Thank you.
[00:38:29] Thank you for it.
[00:38:31] You're so brave.
[00:38:34] The Wise Unknown was made possible by the Reese Foundation,
[00:38:41] where Kyle Reese is a force for good.
[00:38:44] An Einhorn collaborative,
[00:38:45] which just gets wisdom way better
[00:38:48] than almost any foundation we know.
[00:38:50] The show was produced by the amazing Gold Arthur.
[00:38:54] Our associate producer is Jessica Martinez-Dejaas
[00:38:58] and our sound engineer is Eric Gomez.
[00:39:00] Our music is by public school teacher and musician,
[00:39:03] Kumar Butler,
[00:39:04] and our art is by the indomitable Wendy McNaughton.